Central Heating Problem !

Discussion in 'Plumbers' Talk' started by MarkyBoy, Dec 20, 2004.

  1. MarkyBoy

    MarkyBoy Member

    Last Friday I partially drained down a CH system in order to fit two new valves on a bathroom radiator. The only drain-off available was on the return pipe directly adjacent to the boiler.

    The system is heated by a gas Rayburn which is effectively just a glorified back-boiler. The Rayburn is obviously located in the kitchen but, for cosmetic reasons (and a real pain), the pump and valves have been installed above the boiler and accessed from under the bathroom floor.

    I re-filled the system but had a terrible time getting the air out of it. There was all sorts of noises coming from under the bathroom floor, but, as they had recently had new carpet fitted, I was reluctant to pull the bathroom floor up to inspect the pump.

    I eventually found out that the system had no air vent and so I fitted one up in the loft on the feed to the hot water cylinder.

    After about two hours of messing around I eventually managed to get the system running OK. All radiators were were getting hot and so was the hot water.

    However, I have just been told that the downstairs radiators are no longer getting hot. The hot water is fine and so are the upstairs rads but not downstairs.

    I can only think that there is either an air lock or the pumps stuck/knackered but I would like to know if anyone had any other opinions before I start wripping-up their bathroom floor !

    Thankyou for any helpful advice.
    Markyboy
     
  2. ezecool

    ezecool New Member

    Are you sure it ever worked? not a case of them thinking, "lets screw this guy and get him to fix our downstairs radiator".

    Read a similar anecdote where customer swore blind the radiator in the garage worked before plumber had done a bit of work on system. Turned out when plumber ripped up the floor it wasn't actually piped anywhere! just a thought.....
     
  3. ezecool

    ezecool New Member

    lol. having re-read that "radiators" don't work, then my comment probably doesn't apply in this case!
     
  4. MarkyBoy

    MarkyBoy Member

    I went back this afternoon and apparently the downstairs radiators were working at lunchtime but had stopped working again by the time I got there.

    Not an airlock then !?

    I took up the carpet in the bathroom and checked the pump. It is turning but getting very hot. I think it must definetly be the pump. Unless anybody has an other suggestions ???

    Thankyou for any further help or advice.
     
  5. MR MISTERY !

    MR MISTERY ! New Member

    Hi Mark,
    If your working on a Gas fired heating system then you should be "Corgi Registered". It is an offence to do so if you are doing it in someone else's house. But I can offer you some tips if its your own house. Assuming you are a competent person
    You should always run your heating system if possible before doing any so called standard alterations to see for yourself if it all works, and if your unhappy about doing this, Call a "cogi" registered Heating Engineer out (with no regrets).
    Well i'm sure you have learnt your lesson this time.
    But If this happens in your own house try this, it may help.

    BE SAFE,switch off the system electrical supply take up the bathroom carpet to expose the pump and bleed it. To do this ,there should be a large chrome or stainless steel disc in the middle of the pump with a slot in it, this is a cover cap and bleed screw. First put a towel under the pump to catch any dribbles which may come out. Then loosen the disc with a large screwdriver and listen for air bubbles coming out, if it does let it bubble out until only water is seen to be released, then tighten it up again. It has an 'o' ring underneath so don't over tighten it. Then wipe any traces of water off the pump so it is externally dry. Make sure no water has entered the electrical connection. If in doubt check and make sure it is dry. Remove the towel and turn the system back on and try it. If this does not work then TURN OFF the electrical supply AGAIN to the system and remove the disc, it will dribble water but don't panic. Using a flat bladed screw driver about 5mm/8mm across, pass it into the hole and it will locate into the end of the spindle shaft of the pump impeller. Turn it clockwise several times to make sure the pump spindle turns freely. You may feel some restriction at first but only a tiny bit if the pump is still ok. If there is a lot of restriction then it probably means that the pump has seized and it will need to be replaced.
    If the pump needs to be replaced, them take note of the type,and any details you can see but do make sure that you measure the length between the flanges or pump valves if fitted. It may also be wise to check the flexible cable and renew this with heat resistant flex.
    The fitting instructions for the new pump will be in the box. Any good Plumbing or heating merchants will stock a comparable pump and will cost you from about £25 to £35. plus the dreaded vat.
    Hope this helps you sort it all out.
     
  6. Legal Sparrow

    Legal Sparrow New Member

    You have to be corgi registered to fit new valves? on no I'm going to turn myself in to the rozza's tomorrow.

    I have committed such serious crimes as.
    1) Fixing a leaking CH pipe
    2) replaced a washes in a tap, not one of them cold ones but one with proper hot water, from a gas boiler.
    3) I even painted radiators that were connected to a gas boiler.

    please help me, and send me letters while I'm at her majesty's pleasure.

    :)
     
  7. MR MISTERY !

    MR MISTERY ! New Member

    Tut Tut Sparrow.
    I can't imagine where you picked up the title 'Legal' from, or was it because you've already had your collar felt over 'Corgi' for doing something hey lol.
    Well none to bright hey, Admission of guilt, working on a Gas central heating system, etc, oh and painting rads (with toxic paint no doubt)
    Well if having to ask, Why can't you put an LPG boiler in a cellar? is anything to go by, then we all know where you stand hey.
    The point of these forums is to try and help people, ie, to give good sound advise. So taking the PI** is not really appropriate now is it.
    You know some people really do have the brains of a rocking horse and the ideas of a clockwork mouse.

    So helping them should be our way forward here. Oh and another thing, I for one would not be writing or visiting you in the nick.....................1 Year........Maybe more hey.
    Or are we all just having a laugh.
     
  8. MarkyBoy

    MarkyBoy Member

    Mr Mistery ! Thankyou for your detailed and informative response regarding the pump. I have already bled the pump and it does turn. When the system is switched on the pump turns (of its own accord) but obviously not sufficiently to circulate water to the downstairs radiators. I guess it's new pump time.

    Your comments regarding Corgi have left me somewhat confused, and I am not being sarcastic but perhaps a little naive. I had understood that you had to be Corgi registered to work on the gas supply and the boiler (flue etc). If a person needs to be Corgi registered to
    change a radiator valve then presumeably this would also mean that a Corgi registered plumber would be required to :-

    1) Change a hot water cylinder (vented only of course)
    2) Install a new F & E tank
    3) Fit a new radiator
    4) Fit an automatic air vent or by-pass valve into an
    existing heating/hot water circuit
    5) Fit new hot water taps (fed directly from a combi
    boiler)

    I re-iterate that unlike Legal Sparrow, I am not being sarcastic or taking the p*. I am just very interested to know where to draw the line between what can and what cannot be done by someone not registered by Corgi as, theoretically from what you are saying, probably 90% of the posts on this site concern non-Corgi registered people undertaking work that can only "legally" be done by a Corgi registered plumber.

    Thanks again for your helpful response.
     
  9. Legal Sparrow

    Legal Sparrow New Member

    Sorry Mr Mistery ! didn't mean to offend.

    twas meant in jest, though it does annoy me sometimes when the professionals bang on about having to have loads of qualifications to do the simplest of jobs. And this nanny state is getting worse.

    But gas is something I don't do (well maybe a little after a mutton vindaloo) hmm, wonder if in the future Mssr Prescot will require a corgi man to be present when I fart ;)

    Merry xmas
    LS

    P.S I didn't really paint the radiator, in fact I hate it when people do, the previous owner painted mine and they look awfull now :(
     
  10. bathstyle

    bathstyle Active Member

    I was told a few years back that even if you touch the programmer you are responsible for the entire gas Installation in a house??
     
  11. MR MISTERY !

    MR MISTERY ! New Member

    Ok guys, here is where you all stand. If you work on a Gas fired Heating installation in someone elses property then you must be 'Corgi Registered'. That also applies in your own home IF you are NOT a competent person.
    Yes we can call it a nanny state, but I for one would rather call it a safety net laid down by the law to safeguard many vulnerable people and also a lot of well meaning tradesman as well as lay-persons.
    We all generally mean well in are various trades, but you really should not take risks when peoples lives are at risk. Its a ***** to have to pay astronomical fees to get the so called proper training and that's where the real problems arise,,,,,,, its a rip-off. The sooner we all take the complaint to the Government with force, the better the chances of the fees being grossly recalculated.
    that's it for now guys.
     
  12. blahblah

    blahblah Guest

    Mr Mystery are you a wind up? The silence in reponse to your comments is deafening I reeckon because most RGI's who post here are sick of endless rows. However, I must wholeheartedly disagree with your view. Its only the gas supply and the appliance that are corgi territory (and some of that is a bit grey). Would love to see the regs that quote 'system'.
     
  13. MarkyBoy

    MarkyBoy Member

    Well said blahblah ! I raised several issues in my last post, none of which were answered by Mr Mistery. I to am very interested to know exactly which regs state "system" as, theoretically, bleeding a radiator would also be illegal, as well as fitting TRV's, and adding a inhibitor to the F&E tank.
     
  14. chocolateblock

    chocolateblock New Member

    how in anyway shape or form can changing a central heating programme come under CORGI, most gas installers are not electrically competent (and thats not meant as a slur) so how can a a CORGI registered installer possibly change a programmer. This raises the question if only a CORGI man is allowed to work on a central heating programmer who is allowed to change it, unless its a gas fired programmer but to my knowledge these are not on the market yet lol.
     
  15. chocolateblock

    chocolateblock New Member

    PS, if the fuse in the spur supplying the programmer failed who do we send for, a CORGI man who cant touch electrics or a spark who cant touch gas
     
  16. tomplum

    tomplum Active Member

    the answer to that chocie, send for a diy person who dos't charge any money. most people know a clever dick down the pub , ( no affence to cleverdick) but he will be the only person working soon .
     
  17. Easy Life

    Easy Life Member

    This is a copy and paste from Corgi's registered installers website.

    Q: I am a qualified plumber, and have been in the plumbing industry for years. I am, however, not registered with CORGI. Can I install a boiler and pipework and have a CORGI-registered installer connect the gas and commission the installation?
    A: NO! Many people are under the illusion that they can carry out this activity as it's being tested by a registered installer. The Gas Safety (Installation & Use) Regulations 1998, Reg. 2 (23) states: 'The definition of "work in relation to a gas fitting" lists specific activities covered by this term, but this list is not exclusive and other operations may also comprise "work". The definition is wide-ranging and includes activities that could affect, in any way, the safety of a gas fitting (whether new or existing, and whether or not it contains gas)'.

    Jacen
     
  18. doitall

    doitall New Member

    Reg 2 (23) is for gas related work, Read reg 2 (22.

    However membership of an approved class of persons 9under regulation 3 (3) is required only by businesses carrying out gas fitting work ( see paragrahp 43-45.

    Any tom,dick or harry can work on the system including installation.
     
  19. r2d2

    r2d2 New Member

    Just like the Bible these regulations. People interpret sections to suit themselves without fully reading them and understanding them. In the case of corgi , its the "keep my own nest feathered " interpretation. Regards r2d2.
     
  20. blahblah

    blahblah Guest

    The catalyst to this has mysteriously (pun intended!) gone quiet. Let's not give him the satisfaction of carrying on.
     

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