Confirmation for reasons to scribe internal corners on skirting

Discussion in 'Carpenters' Talk' started by ShabbaPlanks, Nov 7, 2006.

  1. Jord86

    Jord86 Screwfix Select

    Top banana my friend. Apparently a lip cut is the notch/cut/bevel/angle on the purlins on a hipped end roof meeting on the middle of the hip rafter, when there's no external walls to support the roof off.

    Now going back to my earlier point, try teaching or explaining to a twenty year old (or older) that he's failed his NVQ 3 written exam/computer exam because he didn't know what a Lip Cut was, to me it's utterly ridiculous.
    Deleted member 11267 likes this.
  2. chippie244

    chippie244 Super Member

    A lip cut is what you'd get if you asked a chippie what that joint was called :)
    WillyEckerslike and Jord86 like this.
  3. Jord86

    Jord86 Screwfix Select

    I've met a lot of lippy cu*ts if there's any relevance? :eek: :)
    WillyEckerslike and chippie244 like this.
  4. Cheers Jord,have seen that joint many a time but did not know the name of it,or even there was a special name for it.
  5. AlvyChippy

    AlvyChippy Active Member

    Shut up , the lot of you!?
  6. WillyEckerslike

    WillyEckerslike Screwfix Select

    Eh! Are we missing something Alvy? I don't think 110v has been mentioned once in this thread (until now anyway).
    Jord86 and AlvyChippy like this.
  7. Jord86

    Jord86 Screwfix Select

    No need to get shirty mate, just because you mitre your corners with a breadknife like a lot of diyers doesn't mean that you can't join in the conversation too! ;)
    AlvyChippy and chippie244 like this.

    KEVIN NAIRN Member

    Hi gpierce, yes that's the way most carps do it, you're right. Finishing with a flat and half round file leaves a "knife edge" that's a nice sharp edge to butt against the next board. Very hit and miss with a jigsaw. I also check that the skirting is square to the floor and if it's not square I use a sliding bevel to get the angle and transfer this angle to mark out the coped angle. Skirting boards are very rarely square to the floor. If the skirting is gonna be coped either end, then it's gonna take time (and a real pain).
    3 things: 1) I never post unless I know what I'm talking about (40 years' experience in construction) 2) just because somebody does it different, doesn't mean they're an idiot or no good. "There's more than one way to skin a cat" meow! 3) This is supposed to be a FRIENDLY forum, please don't get angry or annoyed if you disagree with someone. Let them get on with it their way.
  9. gpierce

    gpierce Active Member

    Are you confusing my post with some of the others Kevin, or were the last 3 points more general responses to the thread?

    I've found a lot of what you've written on the forum in the short time you've been here really interesting - the closest I came to having the chance to learn from a real time served joiner was when I was doing product design in College. I was the only student in on a Friday due to a timetable clash, and the technician had been a joiner most of his life (and from a long family of joiners before him). I learned more from him than the teachers (nothing against them, it's a different job - this was product design, not joinery) so having some of the reasoning and knowledge behind 'this is the way to do something' I find genuinely fascinating - I watch a lot of videos on YouTube by Paul Sellars for the same reason - I certainly never questioned your knowledge or expertise on the subject!

    Similarly, I never called anyone an idiot for doing it differently (don't think I've ever insulted anyone on here actually) - I specifically pointed out I don't doubt it can be done with a jigsaw, that's just not my cup of tea! I promise I'm a friendly guy!

    On the whole coped vs mitre debate, I will admit I recently had a play doing a couple of internal mitres. I'd just bought a Trend digital angle finder, which is supposed to be accurate to .3 degrees or something like that. Since I keep my mitre saw well calibrated, I measured the angle of the corner, as well as the angle between both walls and the floor. After a little bit of maths to get the numbers right (the angle finder measures angles from 0, but the scale on the mitre saw reads degrees subtracted from 90 effectively, as 0 degrees actually gives a 90 degree cut) it was an absolute perfect join first time. More effort than doing a coped join, and if the floor dips in the corner, I like how a coped join will hook onto the adjacent piece to keep the boards at the same level, but I was curious to see how well it would work. I'll also point out this was MDF skirting, so I wasn't nearly as worried about warping or cutting due to the stability of MDF. Please nobody berate me for trying this - it was a slow day, I was only curious, and the landlord I was working for wouldn't particularly care if the skirtings were just butted up against each other with no join, so if it opens up by 2mm in 5 years, it's not the end of the world!...

    KEVIN NAIRN Member

    Hey gpierce, no, the comments were general. I rarely post on forums as you get soo many people who are rude, arrogant and just downright nasty. I'm an ex precision engineer, toolmaker and machine tool fitter. I did a fantastic 4 year apprenticeship that doesn't exist anymore. I learnt hand skills, machine tools, sheetmetal work, electrical engineering, electronics, welding, brazing, soft and hard soldering, the list goes on and on. I did one day at college and one evening class a week. After being made redundant, I joined a shopfitting firm and never looked back. Engineering skills are highly transferable; you already have the maths and physics and hand skills.I also worked part time for a Jamaican builder friend who paid me, but looking back I should have paid him! During my apprenticeship we had a test every week, get 4 questions out of 20 wrong and you were given a verbal warning. Get 4 questions wrong again, and it was a written warning. Get 4 or more wrong again and you're out!
    Let's see how smart the people on this forum are: DON'T GOOGLE!

    - What's the 3 things you look for when sharpening a twist drill?
    - What's the inclusive angle on a twist drill
    - What's the name of the helical groove on a twist drill?
    - What's the raised part of the groove called and what's it for?
    -What's the difference between CLEARANCE and RAKE angles?
    - What's negative rake?
    - What's the difference between countersink and counterbore?
    - What's the difference between High Carbon Steel and Tool Steel?
    - What's TCT mean?
    - What's the difference between a clearance and a pilot hole?
    - What's the difference between a bevel and a chamfer?
    - Why was a chop saw (mitre saw) called a pullover saw?

  11. gpierce

    gpierce Active Member

    Oh heck. I could maybe guess 3 of them....

    Clearance and Pilot hole... I seem to remember a clearance hole would be a hole that is a greater diameter than the fixing going into is, so if fixing two pieces of timber for example, the piece the screw goes into would have a clearance hole, allowing the screw to pull the joint tight, whereas a pilot hole is around about the same diameter of a screw minus the threads, drilled to help prevent splitting.

    Bevel and Chamfer - was it that a Chamfer is strictly 45 degrees, whilst a bevel could be a different angle? That rings a bell but I could be making things up again....

    Chop saw / pullover saw - A total guess but when looking at older saws you start to see more radial arms saws instead of mitre saws. I'd take a flying guess that the radial arm saw came first, was colloquially known as a pullover saw, then the chop saw came in and the terminology took time to catch up.

    TCT stands for 'To cut wood' ;):p

    I expect all three answers are wrong. But you can at least see I didn't use Google!!!

    KEVIN NAIRN Member


    KEVIN NAIRN Member

    There is a "crossover" point between engineering and carpentry. Joiners taught me how to sharpen chisels and plane irons (why are they called irons when they are made of high carbon steel?) and I taught them to sharpen a drill. For some reason, joiners and carps don't learn how to sharpen drills or flat bits on a bench grinder. You really don't want to throw away a HSS 13mm drill if its blunt; it costs £10.00. The first answers right. I "threw" it open to everyone by the way. Don't want to leave anyone out.
  14. Jord86

    Jord86 Screwfix Select

    You'll be lucky to find many carpenters aged 30 and under these days that have been doing it for years but own a bench top grinder/sharpener, most don't bother and just keep renewing chisels, hand planes have given way to cordless power planers, etc. I only bought a sharpening stone on a grinding wheel a couple of years ago myself off one of the guys recommendations on this very forum, for £200 it's not a priority for young carpenters to purchase, other tools are far more essential and pressing to spend the money on.

    Now, your quiz, bearing in mind I know nothing about engineering whatsoever as I'm a carpenter, and I'm a hell of a lot younger than you so I'm on the back foot before I start, I will at least have a crack and have the courage of my convictions.

    1. No idea. Don't blue the steel, ensure sharpening is even all around the bit, check bevels are uniform?
    2. Ditto. 75 degrees?
    3. Ditto. Flute?
    4. There's a theme here.... Maybe to aid waste removal as the bit turns?
    5. And again. Rake is the angle the teeth/blade is manufactured to depending on the purpose of the design.
    6. Negative rake is where the angle of the teeth on the blade are set slightly back from 90degrees, for arguments sake 85 degrees, likewise positive rake is where the angle is set further than 90, ie 95 degrees.
    7. Countersinking is using a countersink bit to bore a tapered hole into the workpiece, counter boring is boring a uniformly sized hole into the piece.
    8. Back to "Christ knows." Apart from the obvious higher carbon content in one steel than the other, I'd assume tool steel is used for more widespread manufacture and costs less, and probably more workable.
    9. Tungsten Carbide Tipped.
    10. Clearance hole goes all the way through the workpiece and also allows the fixing to pass through unobstructed, pilot hole is used as a guide and is a couple of sizes smaller than the fixing required.
    11. A bevel is a slope, a chamfer a sharp crisp angle, easiest way to describe it. So where does a splay fit in then? Or "arrissed?"
    12. Hmm, a moot point. This is an example of regional dialect differences again. A chop saw and mitre saw really speaking are different things, but you do pull the saw over the workpiece, such as a radial arm saw which has been around a lot longer than a mitre saw.

    With all respect, some of these questions prove my point about the lack of relevance of knowing certain names or reasons why things are called the words they are. Most people learn on the job these days, case in point, absolutely nothing of what I was taught in college contributed to me answering any of your questions, just as well really as most of them are probably wrong.
    gpierce and WillyEckerslike like this.

    KEVIN NAIRN Member

    Hi Jord86, great answers! But a few not quite right. The point is a modern "carpenter" has power tools and cordless tools and a few hand tools. They get the job done, whether it's first or second fixing, but they only know enough to do their job. Ask a modern carp or joiner to make a panelled door from sawn hardwood using ONLY hand tools and they wouldn't know where to start. How many chippys can use a plough plane? We've lost a lot of skills and knowledge over the years. That's why I think it's great that colleges still teach the "old" ways. A good carp should be able to cope with almost any job. They should also have a basic knowledge of maths and physics ie geometry, trigonometry, ratios, fractions, decimals and percentages. Now about the dihedral angle on hip rafters... Answers to follow.

    KEVIN NAIRN Member

    Go on Youtube and type in "Tusk Tennon" joints and you'll see lots of woodies making them. I totally disagree with people who say you don't need to learn about old fashioned joints and techniques. If you have a job in a listed building, you may lift some floorboards around a chimney breast, and find a rotted tusk tennon joint. I can't remember if it's the Trimmer joist, the Trimming joist or the Trimmed joist. You will be asked to replace it with NO metal fixings or brackets (no jiffy/joist hangers) If you've been taught what it is and WHY it's there (to pull the other joists tight) you will not be puzzled by this strange wedged joint. The same goes for wedged scarf joints with 2 opposing wedges. The steeples in churches were made this way to lengthen the rafters. No, you don't need to memorise the proportions (Google or text book) but you SHOULD know about them and why they're there. As people are aware, there's a big revival at the moment of timber framing using NO METAL FIXINGS: no nails or screws or straps. Everything assembled by hand (no cranes etc) and using dowels and wedges to hold the construction in place.

    KEVIN NAIRN Member

    Tusk tenons are used on the ends of a Trimmer joist, they go into the Trimming joist and have Trimmed joists attached to them. (I think). Trimmed means shortened. The Trimming joist and the Trimmed joist are usually 1.5 times the thickness of the other joists, to carry more load. Love this old fashioned stuff!

    KEVIN NAIRN Member

    Nope, I'm wrong, the Trimming joist and the Trimmer joist are 1.5 times the thickness. the Trimmed joist is the usual size. My head hurts!
  19. Jord86

    Jord86 Screwfix Select

    We have lost a lot of the old ways and skills, I will agree with you on that. Largely down to technological advances and "time is money, get it done" ideology. I actually know how to use a plough plane believe it or not, it's just not feasible to entertain using as I own three routers instead. A prime example of how things have changed is that if you don't own a nail gun, you will not be able to keep up and earn money in this day and age doing the vast majority of tasks on a regular housebuilding site I'm afraid. Hand cut skirting no longer acceptable or indeed practical, mitre saws and generators or even cordless are now the expected norm. It's the way things have become.
    Astramax likes this.

    KEVIN NAIRN Member

    Hi Jord86, Yes you're right. In the USA they do everything by power tools or machinery. That's why Rob Cossman is teaching hand skills and hand cut dovetails to re-motivate carps away from this mindset. There also seems to be a widening gap between joiners and carpenters. Apart from dominos and biscuit jointers, most joinery taught today is the same as years ago. A carp without a nailgun, cordless drills/impactdriver etc would struggle to earn money. I used to bang in around a 1000 nails a day using an Estwing 20oz hammer, when doing studwork in house conversions.

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