CSCS - Grandfather Rights Gone - Options?

Discussion in 'Carpenters' Talk' started by Londoner_, Mar 2, 2011.

  1. Londoner_

    Londoner_ New Member


    I'm posting on behalf of my partner so please bear with me.

    He is 39 no formal qualifications in Carpentry. Time served Apprenticeship from the age of 17 - 21 with a now Black Carded CSCS Site Manger/Contracts Manager. Worked in various jobs from 21 to 28 when he started a Full Time Permenant job in Shopfitting employed as a Carpenter/Handyman. Now when the cards where introduced his then employer mentioned nothing regard's my partner obtaining a "Blue Craft" CSCS card, nothing was really ever explained to him and to cut a long story short ended up with a "white" cscs card, which until he was made redunant he never actually ever saw, which isn't the greatest for wanting to continue working as a carpenter.

    I have been on the CSCS card site and its all a bit confusing. Could anyone offer us any idea on what would be the best route to him obtaining the card he truly deserves.

    Thanks for taking the time to read this and for any replies.
  2. timber ninja

    timber ninja Member

    a few years back i put one of my experienced yet unqualified guys through OSAT (on site assesment and training)

    the company we used to handle it was smarter builder, just google it.

    it was easy, as im sure your partner will find. a few questions, he visited site to look at the works he had done.

    hope that helps
  3. joinerjohn1

    joinerjohn1 Screwfix Select

    I don't understand how he can have no formal qualifications, if he's a time served apprentice. Did he not pass the apprenticeship? Surely the City and Guilds will have a record of him?
  4. Londoner_

    Londoner_ New Member

    Thanks, Timber. I've sent of an enquiry.
  5. Londoner_

    Londoner_ New Member

    He worked alongside a Carpenter, never attended college. All practical. Nothing like YTS or any kind.
  6. sinewave

    sinewave Screwfix Select

    Not a Timed Served Apprentice then!

    'Spin' doesn't help in these situations!
  7. Londoner_

    Londoner_ New Member

    Sinewave, I'm not putting a "Spin" on anything, so maybe keep you snidey remarks to yourself eh...hardly "helpful"!!!!! 

    "Time served is a term used to indicate a craftsman has spent the required period as an apprentice."

    "Apprenticeship is a system of training a new generation of skilled crafts practitioners. Apprentices (or in early modern usage "prentices") build their careers from apprenticeships. Most of their training is done on the job while working for an employer who helps the apprentices learn their trade. An informal, theoretical education <strong style="padding: 0px; margin: 0px;">may [/b]also be involved.
  8. goldenboy

    goldenboy Well-Known Member

    I think Sinewave is simply pointing out that simply working alongside a carpenter between the ages of 17 and 21 doesnt necesarily mean that someone is time served.As far as I know but others on here willknow better from the year dot the only people who were timeserved as opposed to college/workshop trained were in at 15/16 job for lifers. Some firms didnt like losing kids to college on day release or block release and thus trained in house and paid good wages once they had done 5 or 6 years teamaking and sweeping up without getting a city and guilds. Not doubting your partners skills but not quite sure how having no formal qualifications in carpentry would then translate to getting a card that you say he truly deserves.  One little pointer on getting aggro with people who have simply given a pretty inoffensive opinion on your question is hardly likely to make others likely to bother to reply. Equally is cutting and pasting information off tinternet that actually back up what Sinewave says rather than back up your case. If all the info you need is there why bother posting a question.

    There are plenty of people who havent got formal qualifications in a trade usually due to them earning much betting money in their younger days because they couldnt face earning a pittance as a a formal apprentice and chose instead to go down  the on the job better wages route. Not doubting competency or skill but at some point it catches up and then a return to training is the only way to formally get skills recognised. My advice is at 39 he has another 25 years of work left and hardly wants to be scrabbling about trying to blag cards for the rest of his career, tell him to go back to college 1 day a week for the next 2 years and do Carpentry and Joinery, Furniture Making, Wood Machining or similar NVQ2 and that will suffice. I did my C&J as normal but went back in my mid 20s to do Wood Machining, felt an idiot for the first week as nearly everyone was 16 but after a week I really enjoyed it, the subsidised student breakfasts helped though.
  9. HOTDOG ø

    HOTDOG ø Active Member

    Correct. If the "training" was not a formal apprenticeship with qualifications then he may be experienced but he is NOT a "time served apprentice" If he is good enough just go self employed surely?
  10. joiner1959

    joiner1959 Active Member

    Dont think you have many options here. As mentioned either go self-employed or do a day / block release class in one of the joinery/carpentry disciplines.
    Certainly in Scotland someone your partners age must have some sort of formal qualification to consider themselves fully time served.  Employers will expect a minimum of C&G or NVQ2.
  11. was dunc before

    was dunc before New Member

    He may as well go self employed. Spend any money on advertising, transport and tools. He's already competent enough to tackle most carpentry work. Qualifications may help. But he needs to build up a business, take charge of his own affairs and stop getting jerked about by employers.
  12. jj build

    jj build New Member

    I didn't serve my time as carpenter but ive trained a few qualified carpenters how to cut out roofs and build stair cases in my company and their work has been past by engineers and architects
  13. cwjoinery

    cwjoinery New Member

    If he has the correct skills and experience then he should be able to apply for an On site assesment. Someone will inspect his work, and then ask him to set up and use a circular saw/chopsaw or whatever else they decide on. He will also be assesed on health and safety, correct PPE,safe workplace etc. Then he will have to pass the written tests, which mostly revolves round health & safety issues. Most questions are basic knowledge Example: How would you know what is the correct side of the door to chop the lock into? Why do you use a lubricant when sharpening blades/cutters? What are you essentially doing when you cut a mitre?
    This is a fast track to NVQ level 2, the easiest way for him to take this route would be to register self empoyed. Fit a kitchen, or refurb a house and then get this job assesed. Because he is self employed there there should be funding available for this, as it can cost quite a lot. It may take a few months, as I dont think they can pass you instantly, but once he has passed (and he will, if he has the relevant carpentry skills) then he will get a NVQ 2 in site carpentry & joinery. This will then enable him to apply for the blue card with the NVQ printed on the back. If he rings the local college or the CSCS then they should be able to point him in the right direction, and advice on who can do this in your local area.

    Remember, their main concern is health and safety. So if he can prove that he can carry out his work in a safe manner, with no risk to the public or himself then he should pass. Im sure he will have the skills in carpentry, as it isnt rocket science, its all basic stuff. Then he can advance to level 3 and advanced crafts if he wants to, which is more joinery indepth

    Good Luck!
  14. goldenboy

    goldenboy Well-Known Member

    Maybe its just me getting a bit cantankerous and all Victor Meldrew but bearing in mind the fact that people spend time out of their day answering somones question with useful replies it doesnt take much for her to come back on and say thanks does it. Sorry that people werent able to say that all he needs to do is posess a hammer and a tape measure to get a  professional qualification, but if you ask a question dont expect people to lie and give you the answer you want.
  15. The Happy Builder

    The Happy Builder New Member

    He has not completed a apprenticeship and has no qualifications in carpentry, he was what was known as a "Improver", so will have to go with the flow and be assessed if he wants a card.

    Personally I completed a indentured apprenticeship in carpentry and joinery also took the city and guilds craft qualification, gaining many years of varied experience making me one of the more experienced carpenters in the country. I then did the C&G constructions technicians pts 1 & 2, then later on seven electrical C&G making eleven C&G in total.

    Any way a bit back I applied for a lecturing job a a local college and they said they could interview me for a job as a electrical lecturer, but not as a carpentry lecturer because I never did the advanced craft carpentry and joinery! I have no need for a CSCS card, but I wonder how I would get on if I did!!

    It is all a bit silly really, in years gone bye a carpenter would start a new job first thing in the morning and just before the break at 10.00/ 10.30 the gaffer would have a look to see what you had done in the previous couple of hours and decide wether you were staying or going.

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