CSCS " worker certification"

Discussion in 'Carpenters' Talk' started by Paul Fear, Mar 18, 2018.

?

Agree with this post

  1. Yes

    10 vote(s)
    83.3%
  2. No

    2 vote(s)
    16.7%
  1. Paul Fear

    Paul Fear Member

    I have launced a petition against CSCS, the requirements of this card can be increased at any time with no democratic oversight. The self employed & agency workers are not represented on the board of CSCS or the construction leadership council that set requirements. Basically contractors are using the card to offload their health and safety costs onto workers. You might think you are safe with NVQ2 or NVQ 3, you are not.
    Here is the petition. And link to an article about it.

    http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/ne...ition-against-unfair-certification/?cmpid=cmt

    https://www.assembly.wales/en/gethome/e-petitions/Pages/petitiondetail.aspx?PetitionID=1316
     
    Jord86 and AlvyChippy like this.
  2. AlvyChippy

    AlvyChippy Active Member

    Agree with you to major degree, will sign it, although with slight correction of the issue.
    Regardless of trade cards (scam really) simple thorough mandatory induction is the way to reduce accidents.

    Nvq is about gaining skills, certification is nonsense, as it can not guarantee workers ability or even will to complete the job as well, as it is expected.
     
    Paul Fear likes this.
  3. Paul Fear

    Paul Fear Member

    Agreed, I have no problem with workers completing a health and safety course, I object to the constant stream of qualification requirements and tests now being put upon us, that we are forced to pay for.
     
  4. Paul Fear

    Paul Fear Member

    The petition has no location restriction, just click the ? mark to enter your area.
     
  5. Jord86

    Jord86 Screwfix Select



    Good for you mate, I work on new build sites throughout South Wales and the CSCS is absolutely despised with a vengeance, it's NOT a legal requirement, firms just demand it as they seem to think it 'looks professional' that their subcontractors are 'trained' in health and safety, which if anyone with half a brain and one eye can see the shortage of truly skilled tradesmen and pride in one's work on sites is astounding.

    It's nothing more than a cash generating scam for unskilled paper chewers to earn a salary from, whilst fobbing off the workers telling us we need it, when we don't. My gold card expires in August and I'm really loathe to pay a single penny to renew it, you don't just wake up one day having forgotten your years of knowledge and ability you had the day before.

    Anyway, I wish you the best of luck with your campaign, and I really hope you achieve what you set out to.
     
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  6. Paul Fear

    Paul Fear Member

    I already have enough signatures for it to be considered for debate, but the more people who sign the better. These scam schemes are spreading to other industries that use casual/ self employed labour. Thanks for the support. http://www.safetypassports.co.uk/courses/warehousing/
     
  7. Jord86

    Jord86 Screwfix Select


    Get it across Facebook and all those platforms, the pen is mightier than the sword hopefully bud.
     
    Paul Fear likes this.
  8. AlvyChippy

    AlvyChippy Active Member

    As for location, I just can't (on a phone) change it.
    Thanks!
     
  9. Jord86

    Jord86 Screwfix Select


    Let us know how you get on eventually, am happy to support this construction crusade :)
     
  10. Paul Fear

    Paul Fear Member

    Ok. I will post my progress on this thread. By the end of next week, I hope to get an article published by a well know economics think tank. In the mean time I ask everyone who agrees with me to post the petition on social media. My twitter handle is @worktop64 all the details can be found on my time line.
     
    Jord86 likes this.
  11. Jord86

    Jord86 Screwfix Select


    Getting my missus on the case now, I'm not technologically literate.
     
    Paul Fear likes this.
  12. joinerjohn1

    joinerjohn1 Screwfix Select

    CSCS card is just a money making scam. Had a gold card for years when I was shopfitting (BnQ new builds insisted on it so the company I was employed by paid for everyone to have a card) I sent two agency lads to a B&Q new store to fit a few kitchen displays. Foreman wouldn't let them on site. A few days later the store was handed over to B&Q, sent the same lads back, no problems at all.
     
    AlvyChippy likes this.
  13. AlvyChippy

    AlvyChippy Active Member

    as for signing your petition, I still failed
    [​IMG]

    As it comes to the actual think tank article and involvement, I'd love to contribute any way possible as particular scam has been annoying me for years and not just from tradesman point of view, but from Management perspective as well.
    Lets say on any bigger job, to have work carried out to the satisfaction of IE local council there are tons and tons of H&S exec compliance policies and forms to adhere to and really some basic training and induction is needed, but heck it is to do with NVQ etc?
    also, other tradesmen, that work on my sites, normally have their own Public Liability Insurance and are responsible for the own safety and others... as if CSCS money drain scheme make any realistic impact...
    We are aught to make this campaign serious and to get it NationWide exposure/involvement.
     
  14. Paul Fear

    Paul Fear Member

    Just click the ? Next to find my location. A few people have had issues with this. ( Very annoying). I agree with everything you say about cscs and NVQs. When I was 16 and learning my trade, I could only get YTS jobs and they gave no qualifications. Now after paying a lifetime of income tax they want to charge me for what i have learned from other tradesmen, who were good enough to teach me for nothing. I am trying my best to fight this and appreciate any support people can give.
     
  15. Jord86

    Jord86 Screwfix Select


    You also have to verify you're not a robot by clicking the relevant boxes, unless you actually are Artificial Intelligence :)
     
  16. AlvyChippy

    AlvyChippy Active Member

    finally, signed :)
     
    Paul Fear likes this.
  17. Paul Fear

    Paul Fear Member

    Thanks mate.
     
  18. WillyEckerslike

    WillyEckerslike Screwfix Select

    Whilst I genuinely hate to disagree with people I respect - I'm inclined to disagree.

    I assume that we agree that the notion of corporate manslaughter and individual responsibility at senior manager level is a good thing. Legislation changes mean that senior managers can no longer hide behind lower level failings as a way of avoiding responsibility for serious or fatal injuries. If however you're willing to take the fall and go to jail for someone else's error then we're never going to agree so stop reading here.

    The construction industry as a whole had (and to some extent still has) an appalling safety record. If you think that it's acceptable to go to work somewhere that presents a high risk of you being seriously injured by someone else's stupidity, ignorance or blatant rule breaking that's fine. I don't.

    So on that premise. Construction companies throughout the UK need to ensure that everyone working on their sites has at least a basic understanding of health and safety - their responsibilities, those of others, what to do if rules aren't followed and importantly, what to do if something goes wrong.

    So just for a minute assume that you're the boss of a large contracting company building some houses in Carmarthen and Carlisle, one building 400 houses and one building 40. The law requires that you have systems in place that manage the health and safety of those working for you or affected by what you're doing. The two sites are not exactly close to each other so it would be helpful if there was a nationally recognised safety training, evaluation and testing scheme to prove that the staff on those sites have that basic understanding. Enter CSCS. Coupled with specialist skills training, local site inductions and regular tool box talks the scheme offers proof in the form of a registered ID card that the individual has that basic knowledge. Good for the boss and in my opinion good for the worker. With my CSCS card I can prove to any site manager in the UK that I have safety training that I have understood up to the level indicated by my card. Other than a local induction I don't have to wait until a week on Wednesday when the manager is next in the area to test me nor do I have to sit a very similar test to the site I was on yesterday or will be on tomorrow. It is universal. Clearly those that say it's illegal to work without one are misinformed and need correcting but it is within the right of the boss of any company to say that you must have one if you want to work for us. How much simpler for the boss of every company to say that you can work (up to certain levels) on every one of their sites throughout the UK. If you have a CSCS card you have a competitive edge over those that don't as they cannot work there because they are the company's rules - not the law.

    As to the cost. Surely that is reflected in your rates alongside all the other overheads you have to absorb and still make a profit. As I've stated we have a competitive edge by having one in the same way that we can earn more by using a 'super whizzo' saw rather than a handsaw or a JCB rather than a shovel - the choice is ours. We don't have to do this work but these are the rules if we do.

    Finally (and sorry this is so intense) it is actually about safety - your own personal safety. Forget about the jobsworths and the ELF and Safety crusaders and all the bad press. I prefer to work in the knowledge that those around me have been taught and tested and have a clue about what they're doing in the same way that I want to have a degree of confidence that when I do go home, the driver heading towards me has also been examined and will stay on that side of the road. It's not sissy to want to go home intact that evening or plan a retirement based on sound health.

    Steps back and waits for onslaught......
     
    Jord86 likes this.
  19. Paul Fear

    Paul Fear Member

    I have heard all these arguments before. The bottom line is that employers are transfering their health & saftey costs onto workers via this card. Highways England have introduced their own card based on sponsorship and competence. The main reason they did this was because they had a labour shortage. Sorry but if companies like Persimmon can pay their directors £100 million in bonuses then they can afford to pay to train or assess their workers competence. You simply cannot keep putting the cost onto workers. This scheme also reduces workers flexability many are skilled in more than one trade. Construction had a poor safety record not due to the workers competence but due to employers incompetence and not installing safety systems on site. So i disagree with you, don't expect the workers to pay for your profits!
     
    Jord86 likes this.
  20. WillyEckerslike

    WillyEckerslike Screwfix Select

    Of course workers pay for the profits. That's how the entire system works.
     

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