Cures and Charms

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Devil's Advocate said:
Nice one, Jules - the "what's the point - he ain't listening" 'argument'.

You know, the one that sums up those with 'faith'. And nothing else. Like you.

In my post above, I hope I showed that I am not dismissing magnet effect completely out of hand, as it is a genuine physical property, so could quite possibly have a physical effect. (Tho' it almost certainly does not).

Homoeopathy, however, now that's a beaut. Complete cuckoo land stuff. Fairies, unicorns and 'magic water'. The world of crystals and pebbles and chants and prayers.

I'm now going to test you, Jules, because you've asked for it...

You say I won't change my mind? Here's the truth, sunshine - I will. If I'm given credible, impartial evidence.

Do you know what homoeopathic medicine actually is?

Read - and weep: it works on the principle that a substance that causes the symptoms of a disease in healthy people will cure similar symptoms in sick people.

For example, if an ill person has, say, coughing fits as a symptom of their disease, then you should give them a substance that would cause similar coughing to happen in a healthy person.If they have, ooh, diarrhoea, then you give them something that would cause diarrhoea in a 'well' person. If the sick person has heart palpations, you give them something that would cause palpitations in a healthy person.

Read that paragraph again. And again if needed.

This was one guy's idea around 200 years ago.

If that in itself isn't loony enough, the guy who started this - Hahnemann - found, not surprisingly that if you gave the ill person this substance in undiluted form, it made them more ill (this guy's a genius). So, he started to dilute them in distilled water. Again and again. To the point where there are usually no molecules remaining of the original substance. So he's left with - water.

But, but, but, each time you dilute the substance, you have to strike the container on a firm surface. Then - oh I really can't be ar***...

It really doesn't matter :rolleyes:

Homoeopathy has been shown again and again and again to be as daft as it clearly is. But, of course, there will always be 'believers'. Those with irrational faith.

Enjoy.
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Isn't that exactly what todays innoculations are? To protect you from ilnesses, you are given the illness(or an injection containing the virus) to help you build antibodies to protect you in the future.

Mr. HandyAndy - Really
 
Already had a look. Thing is,if you want to believe (or not believe)summin,you can be sure to find a "well documented" study,trial,or experiment on the subject that supports your viewpoint.

There have been trials that shows homeopathy to work.

The huge pharmaceutical corporations will want reports like this to influence the people,for obvious reasons. I suspect that most people who think homeopathy,and other so called alternative treatments are just quackery,have never used them,and are most comfortable believing in conventional western medicine,with all their side-effects and health risks of their own! All i can say is, i have found homeopathy,and other "alternative" treatments like acupuncture and healing (yes,healing), to have amazing good effects for me.
 
And DA, healing hands have been said to belong to people that have high electrical properties in their body-like magnetism. Weird, but true.

Mr. HandyAndy - Really
 
Yep,handy andy,its kind of similar in that the "memory" or "imprint" of the illness stimulates the healing response in homeopathy. Mainstream medical science doesn't have all the answers,so maybe it just hasnt found a scientific basis for why or how homeopathy works (yet)

But it does work. Fact.:)
 
Hi Jules.

I know it doesn't work for three reasons; (1) if you think about what it actually is, the 'rationale' that's behind it, the history of its evolution, then educated common sense should make you realise it simply doesn't add up. It was just an idea by one guy, but like all things 'faith' it'll have its followers. (2) If you leave out the placebo effect and biased examinations/investigations, it has been shown time and time again that it's nonsense. (3) It's advocate tend to use a lot of exclamation marks.

You 'believe' it works. That's fine. Many people believe in gods and angels and fairies. You will never, ever be able to prove that it works, tho', through any scientifically controlled investigation. Because it doesn't.
 
barnjules said:
Yep,handy andy,its kind of similar in that the "memory" or "imprint" of the illness stimulates the healing response in homeopathy. Mainstream medical science doesn't have all the answers,so maybe it just hasnt found a scientific basis for why or how homeopathy works (yet)

But it does work. Fact.:)
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Yep, maybe, Jules.

But extremely unlikely.

Er, did you read my little spiel about how homoeopathy was 'invented'? Did you blush with any embarrassment? No? Shame...
 
Handy, inoculations are a totally different thing to homeopathy. With inoculations, you are injected with a "dead" version of the virus. (if they injected you with a "live virus", you'd contract the very disease they're trying to inoculate you against) The flu jab (for example) is a mixture of differing strains of flu, which medical scientists "think" will be the most prevalent in the coming flu season. They don't always get this right though, which is why you can get the flu, even after having a flu jab. Believe me, they don't inject you with live viruses. (just had my first (of three) hepatitis B injections, to ensure I 'm protected against this disease)
 
I notice Jules has yet to comment on the link I provided to the Aussie research into homeopathy. (perhaps embarrassed to?) ;);)
 
Mr. Handyandy said:
Isn't that exactly what todays innoculations are? To protect you from ilnesses, you are given the illness(or an injection containing the virus) to help you build antibodies to protect you in the future.

Mr. HandyAndy - Really
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Here's the thing Mr Ha - and why you shouldn't be throwing in silly comments on things you haven't a clue about...

Inoculation does work. How do we know? Because it has prevented the spread of many serious diseases and has even eradicated some. It's awesome. And how it works is quite simple and fully understood; you essentially give a weakened (not necessarily diluted) dose of a virus (in the case of polio, the virus is actually 'killed' before being administered) to healthy people so their own immune systems manufactures the antibodies to fight that specific virus. Once you have these antibodies, your body will remember how to manufacture them - so if the 'real' full virus comes along, your body will tackle it right away before being overwhelmed.

Fan-bludy-tastic.

And you think that's similar to giving sick people a dose of something that'll give the healthy people the same symptoms? And that has been super-diluted often beyond a trace of it being in the 'medicine'?

Oh dearie me, Mr Ha...

One is medical fact, and the other complete fiction. Do you think there's a conspiracy going on - we don't want treatments that work just because we don't like them?

Really, Mr Ha :(
 
Funny how some people want to believe soooo much that something isn't true,or doesn't work. They can get quite worked up about it. They'll never really know until they try it for themselves:D
 
Still no comment on the link to the research showing that homeopathy doesn't work barnjules ??
 
barnjules said:
Funny how some people want to believe soooo much that something isn't true,or doesn't work. They can get quite worked up about it. They'll never really know until they try it for themselves:D
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Yes, I do get worked up. I hate ignorance.
 
joinerjohn1 said:
Still no comment on the link to the research showing that homeopathy doesn't work barnjules ??
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I'll comment on it.
In the governments report it is stated:

"NICE takes the approach that if there is no good evidence for the efficacy or cost effectiveness of a treatment then the NHS should not use it. This is based in part on the fact that scarce NHS resources should be directed at those treatments that have been shown to work in a cost-effective manner"

And, "The NHS funds homeopathy and has done so since 1948"

"
  • An observational survey of over 6,500 patients over a 6-year period conducted by Bristol Homeopathic Hospital. 70% of follow-up patients reported improved health, 50% reported a major improvement.[
  • 101]
  • A survey of 500 patients at the Royal London Homeopathic Hospital showing that many patients were able to reduce or stop conventional medication following homeopathic treatment. For example, 72% of patients reported being able to stop or reduce their conventional medication.[102]
81. Although these surveys show that homeopathy makes some people feel better, it does not, as we have explained, mean that homeopathy is efficacious. The high levels of patient satisfaction could be attributed to the placebo effect, particularly enhanced by three factors: "


Er, MOST people. No proof that it doesn't help.

Er, could be attributed to the placebo effect. COULD BE, could be not.

All these 'could be's' and 'no proof's' and they CONCLUDE that it is inefficacious!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mr. HandyAndy - Really
 
This is worse - but very similar - to discussing religion.

"An observational survey of over 6,500 patients over a 6-year period conducted by Bristol Homeopathic Hospital"

So, these inconclusive results were found at an actual homoeopathic hospital. Wow - some success. How desperate were they to get conclusive results?! And failed.

Here's the weird thing about real medicine - it works.

Listen - if homoeo worked, it would work. But it doesn't work, so therefore it doesn't. Doesn't get much more simple than that.

You can see that it doesn't work in two clear ways - the practical evidence, and the simple fact that it cannot work.

Just like crystals don't work - they cannot. Or hot pebbles - they cannot. Or the laying on of hands - they cannot. Or blah blah blah.
 
Devil's Advocate said:
Yes, I do get worked up. I hate ignorance.
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Your a fine example of ignorance.
Still no answer to my earlier question. How does a cow determine the placebo effect?

And yet its proven time and time again that animal cures work. Thousands of farmers use them daily.
My earliest recollection was as a small boy when one of our cows failed to gain her footing after calving.
The cure used said she would be on her feet within nine days. Guess which day the cow arose and was back on her feet? You think its a coincidence?
Nope. I've witnessed it too many times.
That's just one example. I could recite you hundreds.
 
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Devil's Advocate said:
This is worse - but very similar - to discussing religion.

"An observational survey of over 6,500 patients over a 6-year period conducted by Bristol Homeopathic Hospital"

So, these inconclusive results were found at an actual homoeopathic hospital. Wow - some success. How desperate were they to get conclusive results?! And failed.

Here's the weird thing about real medicine - it works.

Listen - if homoeo worked, it would work. But it doesn't work, so therefore it doesn't. Doesn't get much more simple than that.

You can see that it doesn't work in two clear ways - the practical evidence, and the simple fact that it cannot work.

Just like crystals don't work - they cannot. Or hot pebbles - they cannot. Or the laying on of hands - they cannot. Or blah blah blah.
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Perhaps I should have made it clear.

The survey was done by the hospital.

Point 81. was written by the government - the governments assessment of the result, clearly NOT reflecting any meaning or proof or ANYTHING conclusive, yet they 'CONCLUDE'.

Mr. HandyAndy - Really
 
Do know what's funny about all of this is science, we are all told it doesn't work because science says so, yet most of these alternative medicine are way older than science itself and are still going even though science has poo pooed them, there must be a reason for this, that reason isn't that people are stupid and will believe anything told to them, it may be just maybe that science can not explain why they work so in light of that science dismisses them as non scientific, so no evidence they work, so they don't.

The placebo effect is the best answer to alternative medicine and I firmly believe in mind over matter.
 
Ryluer said:
Your a fine example of ignorance.
Still no answer to my earlier question. How does a cow determine the placebo effect?

And yet its proven time and time again that animal cures work. I've seen it dozens of times.
My earliest recollection was as a small boy when one of our cows failed to gain her footing after calving.
The cure used said she would be on her feet within nine days. Guess which day the cow was back on her feet?
That's just one example. I could recite you hundreds.
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(Psst - it's "you're".)

The sheer level of your imbecility is shown by your use of throw-away and completely unsubstantiated claims like "And yet its proven time and time again that animal cures work..."

You dare to use a scientific term like 'proven'. When it's anything but.

Ry, Ry, Ry - if it worked, the sensible pros would use it. End of. But even that bit of common sense doesn't register with you?

You've seen it dozens of times? You'll have to forgive me - I just do not trust your 'impartiality' at all. Not even a teeny weeny dot. Your critical faculties are simply not functioning (perhaps there's a homoeo remedy for that?)

Your claims have no validity whatsoever. They are pointless. You have no critical urge to investigate this any further - you want to believe, so you will. Fine. Enjoy.

Staggering foolishness.

Ry, why oh why would medical practitioners want to ban this sham if it actually worked? Why?

I'll let this speak for itself:

Not for use in animals
In December the Veterinary Medicines Directorate (VMD) in the Department for the Environment Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) – which governs the use of medicines in animals – made clear that homoeopathic treatments could only be classed as medicines, and thus prescribed by vets, if they were able to demonstrate efficacy.


Homoeopathic products cannot demonstrate efficacy to any satisfactory degree and so this means that they can't be used by vets to treat animals. The use of homoeopathy to treat animals – "there's no placebo effect in animals, is there, so it must work" the homeopaths claim – has long been a mainstay of the homoeopathy industry's argument.


The logic of the VMD's decision is unquestionable. If it doesn't have efficacy, it can't be a medicine. And, ethically, if a medicine doesn't work then a sick animal deserves to have real treatment not sham treatment. The danger of course is that people* may be lulled into believing a homoeopathic remedy is actually treating their pets or livestock, when in fact a treatable disease is being allowed to get worse. This is avoidable harm – in other words, irresponsible behaviour or even animal cruelty.

*Twits.


From: http://www.theguardian.com/science/political-science/2011/jan/05/homeopathy-ban-prescription-pets

 
It doesn't speak for itself in the slightest.
You have no idea lad.
Absolute none and live in a world of complete ignorance.
 
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