Dangers of Lithium Batteries

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These batteries appear to be catching fire even when not being charged? Or do they only catch fire when in a hot place such as a car dashboard? Do all batteries suffer this, or only cheap batteries with poor battery management system?
 
I do worry about EV stored in a garage. On the road they put whole car in a container of water, but not so easy when in an integral garage.

You video does worry me, as I have two ebikes in my flat, one in the living room, the other in the bath.

But what can anyone do about it.
 
Ask Ethiopina Airways and Boeing about the 2013 fire at Heathrow on a B787. And they have had massive amounts of testing and evaluation.
 
Davie said:
These batteries appear to be catching fire even when not being charged? Or do they only catch fire when in a hot place such as a car dashboard? Do all batteries suffer this, or only cheap batteries with poor battery management system?
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MGW said:
I do worry about EV stored in a garage. On the road they put whole car in a container of water, but not so easy when in an integral garage.

You video does worry me, as I have two ebikes in my flat, one in the living room, the other in the bath.

But what can anyone do about it.
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Fortunately, they don't catch fire often. Overheating or damaging the battery can start them into thermal runaway then they are away. They will burn between 700°C and 1000°C.

Standard powder, water or CO2 fire extinguishers will not put them out. Water will cool the batteries, but not put them out. They are a Class D chemical fire and need an AVD fire extinguisher (wet vermiculite) which forms a barrier round the battery cells.
 
Yes dangerous but as Bazza alludes above, the risk is orders of magnitude lower than a fire due to a loose neutral somewhere in the installation or from your fridge failing. Bearing in mind they use pentane as the refrigerant these days.

Im still haunted by the ‘999’ episode watched in childhood where a can of Lynx blew up a house. I’m forever moving deodorant cans out of direct sunlight and away from heaters at home!!! Grenfell had quite an effect on us as we lived in a 3 storey town house at the time with the kids on the floor below. Call us bonkers but since then we keep fire extinguishers in the house and flameproof coveralls under the bed.

There is a very low risk of fire in the home but it happens. Being prepared is far more mitigation than worrying about laptops and EVs catching fire. Again more likely that you’ll lose control of the vehicle and crash than it will erupt in a hellish inferno around you!!!

There was a huge fuss in Scotland about the new smoke alarm regs, but it has made a large number of homes much safer. We’ve gone as far as the wifi linked heads at home so we know if the dog is on fire. Trying to convince clients this extra cost is a good idea is virtually impossible though. As you discuss it next to their Tesla or eTron…

We also talk a lot about EICRs on the forum but how many of us actually check our own homes periodically?

Just thoughts.

As a parting laugh, the kids went on a tour of the local fire station a few weeks ago. They were quick to point out the hypocrisy of the Chief advising to unplug all chargers overnight due to the fire risk. Done whilst standing next to the fire engine they’d learned earlier was on charge 24/7…
 
Bazza-spark said:
Fortunately, they don't catch fire often. Overheating or damaging the battery can start them into thermal runaway then they are away. They will burn between 700°C and 1000°C.

Standard powder, water or CO2 fire extinguishers will not put them out. Water will cool the batteries, but not put them out. They are a Class D chemical fire and need an AVD fire extinguisher (wet vermiculite) which forms a barrier round the battery cells.
Click to expand...

Sorry, that should have read they are not a class D fire. They are a class A chemical fire.
 
Not all lithium batteries are the same. Apparently, there are two main rechargeable types: lithium-ion (li-ion) and lithium polymer( li-po).
Lithium-ion batteries are inherently unstable; suffer from ageing, and are potentially dangerous IF the product has NOT been manufactured to a high standard...
This is because they have a liquid electrolyte...so if the barrier that separates the positive and negative electrode becomes breached the resulting instant chemical reaction can result in a fire.

Lithium polymer batteries use gel or powder and are inherently safer...however they are more expensive to produce and deliver less power that the more popular li-ion...
NOT many people know that - and neither did I until I did a search online... :)
 
I have had to use Lithium THionyl-Chloride cells in the past. When doing some warm environment stress tests a few years back, one vented and resulted in teh evacuation of a 1000 sq metre building due to te smell.
 
DBCDIY said:
Not all lithium batteries are the same. Apparently, there are two main rechargeable types: lithium-ion (li-ion) and lithium polymer( li-po).
Lithium-ion batteries are inherently unstable; suffer from ageing, and are potentially dangerous IF the product has NOT been manufactured to a high standard...
This is because they have a liquid electrolyte...so if the barrier that separates the positive and negative electrode becomes breached the resulting instant chemical reaction can result in a fire.

Lithium polymer batteries use gel or powder and are inherently safer...however they are more expensive to produce and deliver less power that the more popular li-ion...
NOT many people know that - and neither did I until I did a search online... :)
Click to expand...

Yes, the ones in the video are lithium ion. They are the most common and it is the breach of the barrier that causes them to go into thermal runaway.
 
Davie said:
These batteries appear to be catching fire even when not being charged? Or do they only catch fire when in a hot place such as a car dashboard? Do all batteries suffer this, or only cheap batteries with poor battery management system?
Click to expand...
Poor design, manufacturing technique, poor battery management and thermal management can all contribute. Beside the high energy density, lithium batteries (unlike others) have a very low internal resistance that makes short circuit release enormous amounts of energy. Worse, some lithiums have inorganic solvents as electrolyte which can be very flammable. One of the causes is the dendrite growth puncturing the insulating layer in cells during charge cycle creating an internal short circuit
 
Bazza-spark said:
Yes, the ones in the video are lithium ion. They are the most common and it is the breach of the barrier that causes them to go into thermal runaway.
Click to expand...

Back when I was teaching electronics part time at the local college, one of the "fun demos" I would do, when discussing the pros and cons of different battery types, was to (outside, wearing a visor) pit a 1/4 inch cold chisel through a Lithium Ion phone battery, rupturing the barrier, 9 times out of 10 fizzing and increasing temperature caused by runaway exothermic reaction followed by a nice little firework display.
 
There have been a number of incidents with e bikes/scooters especially in NY USA. it’s now alarming people to a point they are leaving these items outside the flats on communal staircase or cages outside the house to minimise damage. From what I read, almost all of these are no name brands from China, which indicates manufacturing priority of keeping prices low as possible.

I have heard that rescue crews in many parts of the world have been advised to move away from the (EV) vehicle once rescue is complete and allow specialist teams to recover it. Hopefully in the future this will not lead to roads being closed for a day or two while waiting for that recovery team.

Boeing took a twin pronged approach to the issue on 787. An improved battery management software ( because the hardware was pretty much leading edge already ) plus encasing the battery in a fireproof stainless steel box.
 
[QUOTE="quasar9, post: 2072805, member: 218479"

I have heard that rescue crews in many parts of the world have been advised to move away from the (EV) vehicle once rescue is complete and allow specialist teams to recover it. Hopefully in the future this will not lead to roads being closed for a day or two while waiting for that recovery team.

There was a scary episode on Trucking Hell a while ago when a car transporter load of them went up. One car had to be carried away upside down on the truck with the fire brigade following in case it ignited again and then dumped in a skip full of water
 
Taking a few minutes to watch and reflect on how we handle and store our battery-powered equipment can make a big difference in safety. I've personally become more cautious about where I leave my devices after hearing about incidents like these.
 
FlyByNight said:
I have had to use Lithium THionyl-Chloride cells in the past. When doing some warm environment stress tests a few years back, one vented and resulted in teh evacuation of a 1000 sq metre building due to te smell.
Click to expand...
This chemistry produces a very stable voltage over long periods at the expense of very low currents. Thionyl compounds like most sulphur compounds are smelly.
 
quasar9 said:
This chemistry produces a very stable voltage over long periods at the expense of very low currents. Thionyl compounds like most sulphur compounds are smelly.
Click to expand...

Apart from the AI bot dragging up the thread.

Yes, very, very stable, with ultra low losses over time. The equipment was designed to sit idle for maybe 5+ years and then suddly spring into life.
 
Older lithium ion batteries are more reliable and less likely to catch fire than the newer LIPO (lithium Polymer). The issue has been driven by the need to get more stored power into a smaller lighter package for automotive use. This has led to the use as polymers as the dielectric between the electrodes of the battery, and making the polymer layer as thin as possible. These batteries are operating in the margins of safe or unsafe, abuse them and trouble will follow. Many of these batteries are made in a similar way to a capacitor, rolled as you would a toilet roll. This is fine but then to save space, some are flattened into an ellipse, this puts extra pressure on the outside edges of the elliptical shape, causing premature di electric failure and short circuit culminating in the fires we see in the videos. In short, these batteries are not yet ready for market, they need a little more development.
 
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