DIY GAS disasters waiting to happen.

  • Thread starter Thread starter Easy Life
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Competence would dictate that certain checks were
carried out to ensure that the gas appliance is
working properly after installation, be you Corgi or
DIYer.


No it doesn't! There is no list of "certain checks"

Since most DIYer's would not have the equipment to
determine flue gas CO concentration they could
obviously not do it and would have to rely on someone
who had the equipment. though most of the other
checks could be done.

FGA is not generally required . DIYers would not usually have a U gauge or know how to use it.


I was under the impression from previous posts that
the new scheme required that all gas appliances
installed after a given date had to have a
certificate. Perhaps I was wrong but that was the
impression given. And in addition that in giving a
certificate for one appliance in the house that all
others were checked as the certificate was for the
house.

Notification is just to say an appliance was installed by a corgi regd bod. There is a disclaimer on quality. It only covers the appliance it refers to. This bit of paper is nothing to do with a Gas Safety Record.

I would still like to know where I can view the
actual certificate that would be issued and where
there is a list of what checks are required before
the certificate can be issued. perhaps a web site you
can direct me to.
There is no standard Landlord's type "certificate". There is no standard list of checks which should be made. That's where training comes in.
 
There is no list of "certain checks"

FGA is not generally required .
Click to expand...
This surprises me - I would have thought that there would be a set of recommended tests for boilers, gas fires etc.
DIYers would not usually have a U gauge or know how to use it.
Click to expand...
Similar problem with electrics - how many DIYers own the test equipment needed to check their electrical work?
There is no standard Landlord's type "certificate".
There is no standard list of checks which should be
made. That's where training comes in.
Click to expand...
There will no doubt be a lot of people here pleased to know that when it comes to landlords' safety inspections, the law does say that they must be carried out by someone who is a "member of a class of persons approved for the time being blah blah blah...
 
PS - just realised something:
Basically BAS we are very close in our thinking but I
do think 3(1) is the clincher but I suppose it would
take a court case to sort it out.
Click to expand...
Not even CORGI think that 3(1) can be interpreted the way you do - if they did they'd make more of a song and dance about it on their website, and not just say

You could be breaking the law....and you could have enforcement action taken out against you.
 
Please excuse me if this has been said before
Too many posts to catchup. Anyway.....
Would it be better if we had or were in a communist state.
(not for me)
Everybody in designated job's, a bit like the 60's 70's
In the 70's you had BRITISH GAS. Who soughted out the cookers, the boilers (if you had one) the gas fires etc.

Most people lived in council houses, so the council soughted out the plumbing, electrics etc.

What would you say is the diference between the 1970's
and 2005
As a builder All this today comes at no supprise to me.
With the growth of DIY STORES
THE INTERNET
An explosion of sat' channel's, DIY progammes. The forums, etc


"THE INFORMATION AGE"
THE "I WANT TO LEARN MORE AGE"
AND I WANT A DEGREE IN PICKING MY NOSE AGE
The many new Entrepreneurs.
The many small businesses.
The rise of the DIYER.
(I bet most of you plumbers and heating engineers have done some DIY)
New Law after new law
Constant updating of
Regulations: BUILDING CONTROL, HEALTH & SAFETY, GAS,WATER,AND NOW ELECTRICS.
I'LL SAY AGAIN WOULD YOU ALL RATHER WE WERE IN A COMMUNIST STATE?
What would you call it today
A CHAOS STATE!
Stand back and get it in prospective.
YOU CANT DO THIS YOU CANT DO THAT!
you might as well go and live in a Sanatorium, a roof over your head, a bed, and three meals a day.
 
PS - just realised something:
Basically BAS we
are very close in our thinking but I
do think 3(1) is the clincher but I suppose it would
take a court case to sort it out.
Click to expand...
Not even CORGI
think that 3(1) can be interpreted the way you do -
if they did they'd make more of a song and dance
about it on their website, and not just say

You could be breaking the law....and you
could have enforcement action taken out
against you.


I checked the CORGI website and what it says under the Gas & Law section is.

"Only a competent person can carry out work on gas appliances or fittings. Do-it-yourself work on gas appliances or fittings could be dangerous and is <u>likely</u> to be illegal.
 
I checked the CORGI website and what it says under
the Gas & Law section is.

"Only a competent person can carry out work on gas
appliances or fittings. Do-it-yourself work on gas
appliances or fittings could be dangerous and is
<u>likely</u> to be illegal."

The first sentence is correct. You must be competent, <u>not</u> Corgi registered. The second is meaningless, as they do not state where it is illegal - which it isn't. It is a BS sentence intended to frighten off DIYers.

The law says you must be competent, with no description of what is competent. If you do gas work for <u>profit</u> you need to be Corgi registered. You can do it for yourself, friend, relative, as long as you make no profit.
 
If you do gas work
for <u>profit</u> you need to be Corgi registered.
You can do it for yourself, friend, relative, as
s long as you make no profit.

It dosn't say that Water Cisterns. It says ...if you carry out work...

There are plenty of plumbers who maintain they make no profit, but they can't use that as an excuse to avoid the corgi gang.

Interestingly, for pedants such as BAS, the SI does not define "employed" or "self employed". That implies that any employed/self employed person has to be corgied if he wants to work on gas, even in a DIY capacity, if employed as, say, an electrician. Only retired people could escape this clause.
 
I think that you have to be Corgied or someone in your company does ( because it does not say that you cannot have one corgi certified person who checks everyone elses work and gives the safety certificate)in order to sell a gas fitting service for money. that of course does not imply that you need to make a profit, only that you vend a service for payment.

here are some quotes from the HSE web-site which may or may not clarify:

http://www.hse.gov.uk/gas/domestic/faqownerocc.htm

Q. Can I use a handyman or plumber for gas work ?

A. A CORGI registered installer with the required competence to do the particular work should always be used. By law (a) anyone (whether an employer or self-employed) running a business, e.g. a plumber, who carries out work on a gas appliance/fitting must be CORGI registered, and (b) any individual doing gas work must be competent to do it safely. DIY gas work could be dangerous and is likely to be illegal. Landlords must use only a registered installer for maintenance and safety checks on gas equipment provided for tenants use.

Q. Is it legal to do DIY on appliances and/or flues ?

A. A competent person must carry out all work on gas appliances. It is always safer to use CORGI registered gas installers to carry out any gas work. Any employer or self-employed person, for example, a landlord, who carries out gas work must be CORGI registered.



I think that should clarify business( employer / self employed ) and DIYer.

I am a little surprised at the answer to the second question in that some flue work if done by a DIYer would normally have to be reported to the local authority for building regs.
 
There are plenty of plumbers who maintain they make
no profit, but they can't use that as an excuse to
avoid the corgi gang.
Click to expand...
Indeed not - if you do it as part of your employment or self-employment you need to be registered.
Interestingly, for pedants such as BAS, the SI does
not define "employed" or "self employed".
Click to expand...
So they will have their normal, everyday meanings then..
That implies that any employed/self employed person has to
be corgied if he wants to work on gas, even in a DIY
capacity, if employed as, say, an electrician. Only
retired people could escape this clause.
Click to expand...
That's an utterly ludicrous interpretation, and you know it.
 
I just love this thread .;)

All they have to do is read the first post on the thread DIY gas work is not illegal.

Then all this tripe stops. Only the hard of thinking still whitter on countering it.
 
i think Screwfix should give a free gift to who ever starts the biggest thread each year.

Probably be a free Catalogue, i forgot they are already free

Jacen
 
This post should clear up all the unnecessary tripe posts on this topic. Just refer to this post the next time this topic arises.

On CORGI's web site in the section on achieving ACS Accreditation.

" Until 1998, gas installers could achieve certificates of competence through a number of different certification schemes - resulting in an inconsistency of standards across the UK. Those separate schemes have now been replaced by the Nationally Accredited Certification Scheme for Individual Gas Fitting Operatives (ACS).
This means that all operatives are assessed within nationally agreed standards, to gain certificates that need renewal every five years. Assessments are available from some 150 centres around the UK. Each of these has been approved by one of six certification bodies accredited by the United Kingdom Accreditation Service (UKAS)."

"All gas installation businesses and operatives must be in a "class of persons" approved by the Health and Safety Executive. That currently means they must be registered with CORGI."

This does not apply to DIY work. CORGI, as one would expect, say &#147;could be dangerous" and "likely to be illegal".

Here is the referring Statutory Instrument.
<http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si1998/19982451.htm>

The HSE published a complete Fundamental Review of Gas Safety

<http://www.hse.gov.uk/gas/index.htm>

In which there is a section discussing DIY

<http://www.hse.gov.uk/fundgas.htm>

It does say:

DIY installation and maintenance Question 30. Should DIY work be legally prohibited, e.g. by restricting the sale of gas equipment to registered gas installers? Should retailers be legally required to record sales of gas equipment and pass these to a central body, perhaps CORGI? Should any central body selected for this purpose be required to arrange the inspection of gas installation work in any case where the record of sale suggests work will be carried out by an unregistered installer? Should increased publicity on the dangers of DIY gas work be given by HSE campaigns, (ii) manufacturer's warnings, (iii) other means? (HSC Discussion Document 'Gas Safety Review: option for change', DDE14a, Page 50) Recommendation 26

226. We understand concern about the possible risks posed by incompetent DIY gas work, but believe at present there is insufficient hard evidence of incidents to support the introduction of a legal ban. However, we recognise that current statistics might not tell the full story and recommend that further work be done more accurately to identify the scale of the problem, i.e. by refining arrangements for reporting incidents specifically to identify those related to DIY (see Recommendation 9), with a view to reviewing the legal position again (say in five years time).

227. In the meantime, we recommend that increased publicity should be given to the dangers of DIY gas work (possibly funded through industry and the Gas Safety Levy - see Recommendations 7 and 11). This should focus more on legal requirements for competence if DIY is undertaken, and penalties if these are not met. More encouragement should also be given to retailers for providing 'point of sale' information, and equipment manufacturers to include warnings with products.

Analysis of responses

228. Of a total 109 responses to Q 30, 54 supported the principle of banning DIY with 35 specifically against; whereas 44 were in favour of a ban in practice with 47 against (NB some voted just for principle or practice,
others for both). The similar question in the consumer document resulted in 29 favouring a ban with 31 against and 1 unclear. Replies to the public questionnaire showed 285 in favour of a ban with 54 against. The issue was also posted on a DIY Internet web site which provoked a number of responses from those practising DIY gas work; these were against more legal controls but generally supported further publicity, stressing competence requirements for DIY rather than frightening people away from doing it.

Argument

232. Data currently available suggests that a number of gas incidents have occurred over recent years where DIY is directly or indirectly implicated, but, the link is not always entirely clear and in some cases it is possible for other factors to have contributed. At present we do not believe that this evidence is sufficiently strong to suggest that current legal controls (ie for competence under GSIUR regulation 3(1)) are inadequate, and an absolute ban needs to be placed on DIY. If you look at some of the rest of the report, and contributing consultants reports concerning dangers in the home in general, you will read that in the gas arena, CO poisoning is by far and away the biggest issue, and that all gas related accidents in the home are a tiny proportion of the total.

DIY gas work is not illegal and is not a major focus area of the HSE. That's pretty clear.
 
I agree totally with Ormus. Ive just read loads of threads about incompetent DIY'ers but lets get real, CORGI should sort out their own people first.

Last year I paid for a CORGI engineer to check over a heating system in my daughters new flat.
He rushed in, started looking at his watch and then said his pregnant wife was in the car, and was late for a maternity appointment.
He couldn,t get the sytem to run, with the flame extinguishing after about 20 seconds. He scratched his head and told me there was a blockage in the pipes and asked me to flush the system through. Im ok with basic plumbing and after he left I disconnected the F&R and ran mains water through, to no avail.
I eventually called out the boiler manfctr engineer and he was the most confident, well presented guy you could ever meet. He asked all the right questions and sorted the problem out in two minutes. The valve on the boiler heating flow was turned off!
Two completely different people with probably the same qualifications.
I know there's good and bad in all walks of life but this has to be sorted out.
 
This post should clear up all the unnecessary tripe
posts on this topic. Just refer to this post the next
time this topic arises. Will we all live that long ????



 
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