Diy Powerflush Hire

Discussion in 'Plumbers' Talk' started by julykid, Mar 25, 2009.

  1. julykid

    julykid New Member

    Hi guys,

    My parents combi CH system is luke warm and the 11 rads are cold at the bottom. On the Boiler engineers recommendation, added Fernox F3 cleaner in for a week, but had no joy. The engineer recommended a powerflush, if F3 didn't do the job.

    My question is, (apart from having to buy your chemicals) how is a plumbers powerflush different from a diy one, if using a hired CH flusher: http://www.hss.com/index.php?p=51610 or is the same sort of equipment/method used?

    Am a compendent diy-er and have done CH plumbing before, and just trying to help my parents out.

    Thankyou.
     
  2. HOTDOG ø

    HOTDOG ø Active Member

    It's basically the same. Just be prepared for it to create as many problems as it solves....leaks, pinholes etc .
     
  3. oliver1234

    oliver1234 New Member

    One thing you could try before going the whole hog is to physically flush the rads by taking them off and running water through them.

    I use a modifed rad valve connected to a lenth of hose, take the rad outside and shake it about (the rad you fool) whilst the water is running.

    Not as pretty as a power flush and obviously it won't flush the boiler or pipework but possibly a safer option than a DIY powerflush.
     
  4. Dyke Pullover

    Dyke Pullover New Member

    As well as removing the rads, could it not be possible to have the rads connected from the drain off and have the filling point open to help clear pipes?
     
  5. imran_

    imran_ New Member

    A DIY powerflush is the same if done correctly, although DO buy proper chemicals and not the crud the hire shop has. Your biggest problem, apart from leaks, is doing it efficiently and in a manner that water doesn't go everywhere.

    Taking rads outside is for luddites, and the money saved on hiring a machine can be reused to get your carpets clean.
     
  6. Dyke Pullover

    Dyke Pullover New Member

    Imran what about my suggestion, I have done this at home and it's made a difference.
     
  7. mad.max

    mad.max New Member

    It's basically the same. Just be prepared for it to
    create as many problems as it solves....leaks,
    pinholes etc
    .

    Ignore this nonsense. Yes, it is possible to discover leaks waiting to happen, but the PF does not cause them, it reveals them. It is also quite unlikely on an already pressurised system.

    Jk, who reccomended the PF? Although I am a fan of this most excellent cleaning system, I'm not convinced that it is a remedy for your problem. Is the system consistently "warm", as opposed to cold spots etc. Are there any knocking noises?
    It is possible that a fault exists on the boiler, particularly if it is a modern electronically controlled type. Try posting some more details, and someone with more current experience of modern boilers may have some suggestions.

    How old is your boiler ?
    Make and model ?

    good luck
     
  8. oliver1234

    oliver1234 New Member

    Imran what about my suggestion, I have done this at
    home and it's made a difference.

    Yes, it's devalued your house! lol

    To be honest I don't think your method would do any harm as long as you replenshied the inhibitor.
     
  9. imran_

    imran_ New Member

    Not really - powerflushing is all about flow, and there ain't a lot through a doc. About the same as a drain and fill. You must also do each rad in turn, otherwise with the system open the water will take the path of least resistance (i.e. avoid the blockages) which helps nothing.

    For me a proper machine + Kamco FX-2 is the ideal - whack a bit on your hands and you'll know why it works!! Needs to be hot, and it'll shift almost anything (though blocked cold feeds are a nightmare at the best of times).

    People think that all you have to do is connect the machine, switch it on and then relax and read a couple of books. For a standard 3/4 bed house I'd be looking at approx 6 hours depending on where connected. OK that's me reading books, but the apprentice is runing his arz off. ;)
     
  10. Dick Puller

    Dick Puller New Member

    It is possible that a fault exists on the boiler, particularly if it is a modern electronically controlled type. Try posting some more details, and someone with more current experience of modern boilers may have some suggestions..............I'm going to agree with the above view. Certainly worth having the thermostats or whatever checked first.

    You'll know if it's a sludge problem, a very marked lack of heat at the bottom middle of the radiators, also as said, you could just have a circulation problem, not related to sludge.
     
  11. Dyke Pullover

    Dyke Pullover New Member

    What size pipe work is it?
     
  12. julykid

    julykid New Member

    Hi guys and thankyou for all your replies.

    It's a vokera unica 36 HE. The boiler, pipes and rads are all 2 years old. Its 22m and 15mm copper pipes.

    Upon installation the system was flushed with x300 and x100 added.

    The Vokera engineer replaced the pump, the old one was red inside with rust, said all else was working fine.
    He recommended F3 and if that didn't do the job then to powerflush,
    but reckoned its probably a circulation problem.

    The flow pipes go from hot, warm to cold, but the returns are slightly less than cold.

    When the CH comes on here are ticking noises on the upstairs pipework,
    like pipes banging together then hot and a drip drip sound,
    but there's no water leaking and the bar pressure remains the same.
    Though the ticking and drip sounds have got more noticable.

    I did removed a few of the rads before and flushed them by hand (bucket and funnel),
    but nothing came out and it made no difference.

    When I added the F3, all the downstairs rads went unbareably piping hot in 5 minutes,
    but made no differenace upstairs. The following day the whole lot was back to the same.
    Turning off different rads got others hot/warm, but not as they should be.

    Yesterday flushed out the F3 and about half a bucket of brown/black water came out and
    then just watery tea colour, eveen after 2nd flush, which I know indicates rust.

    I'm just puzzled and don't want the parents to fork out cash, only to end up with the same problem a week later.

    Once again your help is most appreicated.
     
  13. Crowsfoot

    Crowsfoot Screwfix Select

    It's certainly a bit of a puzzler this one.
    I tend to agree that a powerflush will not help things.
    What would I do?
    I'd replace all the radiator valves with wheel and lockshield (no thermostatic) and open them all fully up.
    Yes, give that a go.
    And please post up how you got on.
     
  14. Dreadnaught Heating

    Dreadnaught Heating New Member

    X300 & F3 are for cleansing 'new' systems, I would suggest using Sentinel x800 (was ferroquest?)

    Works for me (combined with a rubber hammer on rads if cold-spots ahve developed).

    As Imran says, you don't get a loada time to put one feet up.

    Patrick
     
  15. G Brown

    G Brown New Member

    Loz, just passing water through the system does not remove much sludge.
     
  16. julykid

    julykid New Member

    Tapwrench, half the rads have thermostatic values and the others are just plain manual ones. All have been previously fully open, but has made no difference between any of them.

    If it was a circulation problem, would a powerflush solve the problem?

    Thanks
     
  17. Synchron Motor

    Synchron Motor New Member

    Powerflushing is not really a DIY task (imo). What another poster has suggested (removing TRV's) will make the system non-compliant with part 'L' building regs.The system has to have TRV's and a boiler interlock(roomstat).
    From what you have said, it does seem likely that the system is sludged up. Get a quote from someone who specialises in powerflushing. If they don't expect it totake at least five hours they probably won't do it properly.
     
  18. Crowsfoot

    Crowsfoot Screwfix Select

    Thanks
    ----------------------
    I'm going down the process of elimination route.
    Changing all the valves is something that you can do.
    The ticking noise is almost certainly caused by worn meatal in 1 or 2 of the valves and if we can get rid of the noise it wil be a good start.
    At the sametime you can have a look into the near ch pipework/valve for a blockage.
    Thermostatic valves whilst having good points also are prone to faults thats why in your case it would be a good idea to get rid of them.
    Changing the valves will cost you around 30 pounds + your time and stands a 50/50 chance I rekon of fixing your problem.
    A powerflush will cost you a lot more money and do nothing to solve the problem.
    Tappy,
     
  19. Crowsfoot

    Crowsfoot Screwfix Select

    You could always re-instate the thermostatic valves at a later date, once the system is working properly.
     
  20. imran_

    imran_ New Member

    Fit TRVs - not to do so would be a bit silly since it will cost you more in heating!

    As as for £30, s decent rad valve (e.g. Pegler) will set you back at least a fiver, so 11 rads x £5 (x2) is a bit more than £30.

    Personally I'd get a pro in to diagnose properly. In such instances, if I thought a powerflush would help and it didn't I discount by 25%-50% labour cost depending on the amount of carp stuck to my mag filter. Could be a simple blockage, seized valves, pump impeller shattered, auto-bypass failed/incorrectly set, non-balanced system, ......

    The tapping sound is probably pipe expansion against other pipes/joists - at a guess.
     

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