Door hanging

Discussion in 'Carpenters' Talk' started by Paul Otter, Feb 24, 2017.

  1. sospan

    sospan Screwfix Select

    Under the new rules, he would be a "worker" and you would have to pay tax, ni, holiday pay, sickness and all the other costs.
  2. CGN

    CGN Screwfix Select

    Be easier and less hassle for you to go and hang 2 and a half doors per week! :D
  3. wiggy

    wiggy Screwfix Select

    Thats has been banded about for years, it doesn't work like that, I have worked with the same bloke for ten years, admittedly not 12 months, 8 maybe. He invoices me, I pay him, some times cash, most of the time bank transfer.
    He is cis, sole trader.
    Loads of people I know do it this way.
  4. sospan

    sospan Screwfix Select

    And the rules changed recently with respect of Pimlico plumbing decusion, Uber and the London courier firm.

    If you have a relationship with a firm that "controls" your work you are now classed as a worker. The bad news for everyone is that the decision can now be applied retrospectively. HMRC have been tightening clauses related to IR35 and Schedule 660 since 1999 and have gone back decades in peoples financial affairs to recoup underpaid tax - the 7 year rule does not apply to these clauses. Similarly schemes where sub contract people were paid via off shore schemes have been made illegal and the laws applied retrospectively.

    Schedule 660 is particularly nasty as it goes after wives and partners whom are on the "books" as directors and workers of a firm to draw an income from the business. Once you are investigated for 660 non compliance you have to prove that the partner provided an "active" part of the company and that any payments are proportionate to the efforts provided to the business. And doing the "books" or admin doesn't normally cut it if the person has another job

    It is akin to the Police recording everybody whom travels on the motorway, then changing the speed limit from 70 to 60 and issuing speeding tickets to everybody who travelled legitimately at 70.

    At the moment it is the lack of resources of Tax inspectors which is slowing down the re-coup rate. However, that will change soon
  5. wiggy

    wiggy Screwfix Select

    Surely it works on % of income from one particular employer?
    So is it ok to have someone on the firm for 3 months, 6, 8?
    Lets say I have a 6month contract on, do I have to employ everyone for that time? surely not.
  6. sospan

    sospan Screwfix Select

    It can be it is down to the "control" element. If you took on an extra electrician and told him which jobs to do, when he has to turn up etc. You have control over them and hence they become a "worker" and hence firms have to pay holiday pay, tax, NI etc. There has to be a very carefully worded contract in place to avoid the issues.

    They have tightened up so much, that no contract/self employed person is allowed to work for the UK government unless they are "employed" and Tax, NI is taken from them at source. It has huge affect on people like Locum doctors, pharmacists, IT contractors. The rules on agency working implement pre-christmas will be tightened affecting people like agency nurses, supply teachers, nannys, care workers etc.

    The only exceptions are where people can work for different "employers" at the same time - e.g. domestic cleaners and baby sitters where they can come to one house do their work and then go to another without restriction or permission.

    This is the Governments interpretation of employment

    Working out employment status for an employee
    • they’re required to work regularly unless they’re on leave, for example holiday, sick leave or maternity leave
    • they’re required to do a minimum number of hours and expect to be paid for time worked
    • a manager or supervisor is responsible for their workload, saying when a piece of work should be finished and how it should be done
    • they can’t send someone else to do their work
    • the business deducts tax and National Insurance contributions from their wages
    • they get paid holiday
    • they’re entitled to contractual or Statutory Sick Pay, and maternity or paternity pay
    • they can join the business’s pension scheme
    • the business’s disciplinary and grievance procedures apply to them
    • they work at the business’s premises or at an address specified by the business
    • their contract sets out redundancy procedures
    • the business provides the materials, tools and equipment for their work
    • they only work for the business or if they do have another job, it’s completely different from their work for the business
    • their contract, statement of terms and conditions or offer letter (which can be described as an ‘employment contract’) uses terms like ‘employer’ and ‘employee’
    The grey area is how much of these a person becomes deemed as an employee. If not then a worker and finally self employed.

    I have so much work on at the moment, I am turning it away but I am not prepared to take someone on either as an employee or sub contract
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2017
    wiggy likes this.
  7. Paul Otter

    Paul Otter Active Member

    Well, I'm 49 and I can do it.
  8. Paul Otter

    Paul Otter Active Member

    No he would be self employed as he would be classed as below as lifted from HRMC

    Checking if they’re exempt from PAYE
    Someone is probably self-employed and shouldn’t be paid through PAYE if most of the following are true:

    • they’re in business for themselves, are responsible for the success or failure of their business and can make a loss or a profit
    • they can decide what work they do and when, where or how to do it
    • they can hire someone else to do the work
    • they’re responsible for fixing any unsatisfactory work in their own time
    • their employer agrees a fixed price for their work - it doesn’t depend on how long the job takes to finish
    • they use their own money to buy business assets, cover running costs, and provide tools and equipment for their work
    • they can work for more than one client

    • All I am doing is providing him work as and when he wants it if it is available, if he ruins a door he pays for a new one, if he stains someone's carpet he fixes it and he can work for as many people as he wants without asking me and he supplies all his own tools and PPE.
    wiggy likes this.
  9. dwlondon

    dwlondon Active Member

    But what is your role in this? If you see it as a business venture you need to choose to be an employer, contractor, agency and so on.
    Obviously you would want a percentage? Which is why I suggest your nearest role is that of an agency.

    If you expect a fella to be that capable and responsible, he would more likely want to be his own boss.
  10. P. Gee

    P. Gee Active Member

    I may be able to let you know this year as I'm planning on some kind of semi retirement. Just a shame the bills don't retire with you!!
  11. Paul Otter

    Paul Otter Active Member

    it would be as a contractor - I work for two or three builders like this but mostly for myself so I can be a contractor subcontracting, a sub-contractor and a contractor direct to Mr Smith making his bookcase.
  12. dwlondon

    dwlondon Active Member


    As an example, I might get a job boxing in some wire and pipe. But if the wire and pipe needed reworking I wouldn't take that on as part of the job, as it would mean me being responsible for finding sub contracting plumbies and sparkies. I would only do the carpentry after it had been sorted.
  13. Paul Otter

    Paul Otter Active Member

    Exactly, my T's and C's state that I only carry out carpentry work, I don't see your point
  14. Astramax

    Astramax Super Member

    Tell me about it, I have been semi retired for 2 years now following a serious health issue. :eek::(
  15. sospan

    sospan Screwfix Select

    Yep me too, but have to turn work away and no way am I restarting the firm I had before my accident or take on another person
  16. leesparkykent

    leesparkykent Well-Known Member

    That's why most firms pay people through companies like this

    costs about £16 a week per subby.
  17. P. Gee

    P. Gee Active Member

    Sorry to hear that, it's really tough sometimes. I've been self employed since 1983 and although I wouldn't have it any other way, I don't think people who say how lucky I am understand how difficult it can be at times.
  18. sospan

    sospan Screwfix Select

    There ha s been a huge growth in these firms since 1999 and for a lot of smaller self employed people whom invoice mainly for labour they make a lot of sense because there are no accountants fees, simpler tax returns and NI contributions are more straight forward - and most importantly if you sadly find yourself in need, state benefits are easier to claim.
  19. crazyworld

    crazyworld New Member

    i like hanging doors.£45-£50 a door.i can fit up to 6 in a day.old school carpenter who works hard and has a system.£65 for a single internal fit.electric planer no.problem.i read that some fit 3 in a day,they cannot be carpenters.handymen i recon.£200 a day is what you should aim for.skill shortage of good men if you had not realised it.
  20. crazyworld

    crazyworld New Member

    stupid idea

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