EICR certificate

Discussion in 'Electricians' Talk' started by PurpleRoses123, Jul 19, 2021.

  1. jonathanc

    jonathanc Screwfix Select

    Because you have no relationship with the inspector. the inspectors duty is to the person who contracted the works, to perform a test and certification in accordance with the law. Whether they do so or not is a matter between the landlord and electrician. the only argument you could have as i see it is a general duty of care where an inspector fails to code a C1 and take immediate action to rectify the danger to life. Even then its probably a civil matter

    and no whoever told you that if there were a fire the inspector would be liable is talking rubbish. the cause of the fire would have to be electrical, then within scope of the inspection ( not an appliance) then you would need to prove that it was prevalent at the time of the inspection and that a proper inspection would have discovered it. even then there is an argument that individuals should mitigate any claim where possible so on discovering an electrical fire you cannot just let it burn, you would be expected to turn power off where safe to do so and call fire brigade promptly. if by performing an EICR it make the electrician liable for all fire risks then i could guarantee no one would bother carrying out the inspections ...
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2021
  2. PurpleRoses123

    PurpleRoses123 New Member

    I appreciate what you are saying, I didn't think they would be liable for any old fire as such., and of course I wouldn't just let something burn, I would isolate and call 999 etc.

    What I've been told is if anything happened, eg person electrocuted (and it goes without saying at the point at which any cause/fault has been established...further down the line)...then it would indeed be the man named on the certificate who would be prosecuted.

    Not the actual inspector because as far as the authorities are concerned there is no record that he did the Inspection. As far as the evidence/paperwork goes the guy who did the Inspection simply does not exist.

    So the man at the council said that the person actually signing the certificate would be very silly to do so if he wasn't absolutely sure everything was above board.

    I get that. But from my point of view that is too little too late. No good putting your seat belt on after the accident is it.

    However, I accept the law is what it is and there is very little I can do about it. It just doesn't bode well when you have several people, including the guy today looking at the situation and shaking their head.
     
  3. jonathanc

    jonathanc Screwfix Select

    well i think you hve the landlord here. the regulations require the person carrying out the test to be qualified and competent. see here

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...safety-standards-in-the-private-rented-sector

    it is not enough for a quaified and competent person to sign the certificate, the person carrying out the test has to be quaified and competent. If the person who carried out the test does not meet the requirements of the Regulations then the landlord may have an EICR but it does not meet the requirements of the Regs and he is in clear breach

    see 3(1)b) here https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/312/regulation/3/made
     
  4. PurpleRoses123

    PurpleRoses123 New Member

    Many Thanks.
    This is the same legislation I sent to the housing standards team but as I say he just said so long as they had a certificate all was well.

    He did not seem to have any clue about the Inspector having certain qualifications and experience.

    This is why I'm hoping MP will step in and enforce the government legislation on my behalf.

    Feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall, my ex husband works in gas servicing (for the council lol) and I know several tradesmen through friends, all of whom agree with me but the housing standards man just doesn't seen to get it

    Thank you for all your help.
    It's much appreciated
     
  5. jonathanc

    jonathanc Screwfix Select

    I think you need to also talk to your councillor and possibly https://www.lgo.org.uk/

    wouldnt be the first time the council doesn’t know what it is doing re the law. It’s not just about a certificate it is about the qualifications of the person doing the inspection.
     
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  6. PurpleRoses123

    PurpleRoses123 New Member

  7. dray

    dray Active Member

    Did you say that the property belongs to your Brother in law (post 11)but is now selling? Have you tried to talk to him about the problem and your concerns about faulty electrics?
     
  8. PurpleRoses123

    PurpleRoses123 New Member

    It's complicated. The house fell into disrepair and he simply wasn't getting anything done, faulty shower, light fittings, damp, hole on back door etc etc.
    I had no choice but to contact Housing Standards.
    In an ideal world I would have just moved but as I said I am struggling to find anywhere, I don't have a guarantor and I'm on housing benefit.

    Needless to say brother in law wasn't very impressed with me but then decided to sell to developer friend and wash his hands of it all. Fair enough.

    All communication has broken down since then.
    I never had the gas boiler serviced for years and he never protected my deposit. All sorts have since come to light. No consent to let the property in the first place and mortgage company tracking hom down.

    One big mess. I'm stuck in the middle.
     
  9. jonathanc

    jonathanc Screwfix Select

    well just beware as your BIL may have been reluctant to kick you out but the developer may have no hesitation to do it. After all he is a developer abs not interested in being a landlord
     
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  10. dray

    dray Active Member

    So its still a private landlord, and you are putting pressure on the council standards team to try to get them to force the new landlord to do something for you?

    Would it not be better to let the landlord know all of the problems and the legislative requirements concerning those issues, and that you are in contact with the Council standards team, MP etc?

    I would think you have to try to reach some sort of agreement with the landlord, rather than the minimum standard the council enforcement team would only be able to push them for anyway.

    Have you tried the CAB as they sometimes are able to get a legal letter of on behalf of the tenant that might have more weight than the council in this instance. I do feel for you and I really hope you get it resolved and sorted out.
     
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  11. PurpleRoses123

    PurpleRoses123 New Member

    I see your point but he does actually own loads of houses and the agency that manages them.
    The manager there has told me all they want is a good tennant that pays on time. Which I have done for the last 10 years.

    In order to evict me as I'm reliant on the council it would be a long drawn out process. The council won't rehouse me until the bailiffs come.
    It's a terrible process. It would cost the landlord an awful lot and take a very long time.
    The manager says he is more than happy to just keep it ticking over. It's an investment, one of many in his portfolio.

    I could still be evicted at any time, I know that. But that is a situation that all renters face.
    It's a choice between not rocking the boat abd putting up with inadequate facilities. Only so much you can put up with.
     
  12. PurpleRoses123

    PurpleRoses123 New Member

    He does know of all the issues I've flagged up. He's in the building trade and was actually trying to sell to another friend but that fell through.

    All repairs have been put off, as have his contact with the mortgage company....they're still sending letters here for him.

    He knows the concerns I've raised regarding the electrics but he's just not interested.
    I just got blocked on his phone and then was contacted by the agents saying they are buying it and will take time at the solicitors.

    Meantime I was to deal with them. I've paid rent via them and they have arranged me a new oven (kept tripping the RCD).

    They are doing their best, ultimately its not theirs yet and they won't want to invest too much money in case the sale falls through.

    But it's been 10 weeks now and still no completion. But I'm waiting for repairs doing that I reported in February.
    Nightmare
     
  13. PurpleRoses123

    PurpleRoses123 New Member

    No not trying to force the new landlord....trying to push the current one to take action. The list of repairs are getting carried forward as a case by the council anyway so the new landlord knows what he is buying into and knows what needs to be done.

    The issue of the EICR is a sticking point though.
    Also trying to highlight to the MP/ombudsman about the lack of knowledge in the housing team regarding legislation.
     
  14. PurpleRoses123

    PurpleRoses123 New Member

    Just another update for anyone who might be interested.

    Today I spoke with Housing Standards again who offered to call NICEIC on my behalf.
    They wouldn't tell him anything but said they would be more than happy to take a complaint from me even though I didn't instruct the work.

    The adviser there asked all the details. It turns out the company listed on my EICR are registered with as Domestic Installers but they are NOT approved to carry out EICRS and they have NOT opted into their Private Rented Scheme so they are not covered there.

    They are allowed to issue a non branded green certificate which they obviously have done but that it is the landlords responsibility to check that the Inspector meets the government criteria under the regulations relating to the new legislation.

    So basically because the Electrician who signed the certificate is listed with NICEIC the council were happy with this.

    Today he could not apologise enough and the whole case has been passed to the manager.

    Now, it is possible that the Inspector does indeed have all the necessary requirements but judging by his age, the fact he's just completed an apprenticeship and the fact that his name was never recorded anywhere....I really am doubtful of this.

    The way he was in and out in under an hour also is not good.
    I honestly feel that the man himself has been told to go do the job and the boss has assured him, don't worry I'll sign it off etc etc. I feel sorry for him. He was lovely young man.

    So now I have to follow up with Trading Standards.
    Wish me luck.
     
  15. Tony Goddard

    Tony Goddard Screwfix Select

    There are no requirements for any qualifications or memberships to carry out EICRs - The NICEIC is a private limited company, it has absolutely no legislative authority, it simply sells its members services, which as electricians we choose to buy into or not as the case may be.

    If a company is a registered member of the NICEIC they can have the logo on their van/letterhead/website and issue NICEIC paperwork, but they can still issue their own non branded paperwork if they choose to, or havn't joined a particular scheme.

    If they printed the EICR on company stationery with the NICEIC logo on, as they are a member, they are not doing anything technically wrong. As they pay the NICEIC £££'s every year, the NICEIC isn't going to want to loose them to a competitor.

    As you don't have to be a member of the NICEIC to carry out an EICR (or for that matter do any electrical work, there are other part P notification routes and services) the council would be on very thin ice descriminating against a contractor for not being a member of the NICEIC. In terms of the law, the contractor is a member of the NICEIC in terms of Part P notification and work assessment on the basic "domestic installer" so has fulfilled everything he has to do as an electrician.

    Now, that doesn't change the fact that it seems clear that your EICR has been badly done, but sadly you will find the NICEIC and the council ultimately unable to act. The electrician can dig his heels in, say that what he has done in his judgement is correct and that his report states his opinion on the installation.

    Additionally, as you are not the customer, neither he, nor the NICEIC will deal with you. I do hundreds of EICRs every year, many on rented properties, I pride myself on doing things correctly, and am always half a day on the job at least, I'm glad to say I've never run into an unhappy tenant - but you do get the odd one ask you if everything is OK, to which I just say "i'll have to go over my findings and report back to the landlord" because, the landlord is my customer, I'm his agent in that respect and I can't discuss anything with the tenant who is the landlords customer, not mine.

    I think the only way you may get progress is to engage an electrician to do a report for you, but that has issues, because the tenant cannot (unless they have a maintaining lease) authorise anyone to disturb anything, so the most you could get is a written, observational report and non invasive test measurements.

    I feel your pain, I do, but i fear you are in catch 22 here
     
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  16. PurpleRoses123

    PurpleRoses123 New Member

    I fear it too to be honest, but I am trying my best.

    It's more a case of the council now listening to me and insisting that the actual Inspector has the necessary qualifications....whereas before they were just simply accepting the certificate on the basis that the signatory is registered with NICEIC. They simply wouldn't listen to me about my concerns, but now they are.

    As you say I'm a bit stuck because I can't instruct anyone else to do a report, and even if I did it wouldn't be accepted as the landlord won't have agreed to it.
     
  17. jonathanc

    jonathanc Screwfix Select

    unfortunately you totally miss the point and you should read the regulations. I do not dispute anyone can carry out an EICR but there is a legislative requirement that the person carrying out the inspection for the purpose of the private rented electrical regulations is both qualified and competent. It is black and white in the regs.
    Now if a landlord employs someone who is not qualified to do the EICR then I don’t dispute they have a report but it does not meet the requirements of the regulations.
    Landlord need to beware and ensure the person physically doing the inspection is qualified and competent.
     
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  18. Tony Goddard

    Tony Goddard Screwfix Select

    I know the regulations Jonathan!, my point is that the person doing the EICR does not have to be a member of a trade body, they need to be classed as competent to do the work, and as you know, thats a hazy area. We don't know what qualifications or experience this chap has, if he has 2391 or 2392, a professional indemnity policy, has served an apprenticeship and got city and guilds, I'd class him as competent. Likewise if he trained in the 60's has worked on the tools ever since, has taken the regs, competent.

    From the landlords persepective, he has engaged an electrician, advertising and trading as such to do a job he has agreed to do - the electrician is a member of a CPS, so under some level of scrutiny, the landlord can argue he has done everything he can reasonably do to ensure he has engaged a competent person.

    He has a bit of paper, signed by a person, trading as an elecrician, saying his electrics are OK, he's in the process of selling to someone else - in honesty, if he's not done any repairs up till now, he isn't going to.

    I'm not defending him, he sounds like Rigsby's unfunny brother to me, but he's technically complied with legislation.
     
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  19. PurpleRoses123

    PurpleRoses123 New Member

    BIL is on the building trade.

    They all do work for each other, mates rates and all that. Cut corners where they can.
    Just hope the council will now push to see the qualifications of the actual man that did the Inspection and not just the guy who signed it.
     
  20. PurpleRoses123

    PurpleRoses123 New Member

    BIL is on the building trade.

    They all do work for each other, mates rates and all that. Cut corners where they can.
    Just hope the council will now push to see the qualifications of the actual man that did the Inspection and not just the guy who signed it.
     

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