EICR certificate

Discussion in 'Electricians' Talk' started by PurpleRoses123, Jul 19, 2021.

  1. jonathanc

    jonathanc Screwfix Select

    again you miss the point. It is not sufficient to engage a competent person to sign the certificate, the person carrying out the inspection must both be competent and qualified. A time served sparks without qualifications covering the current version of the writing regs is not sufficient. Getting an unqualified person to do the inspection and a qualified Person to sign the certificate is not sufficient.

    It is the landlords responsibility to ensure the inspector is qualified and competent. There is no defence in saying “oh I assumed he was” the if the landlord has not followed government guidance in selecting an inspector then it will be clearly found against him.
     
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  2. PurpleRoses123

    PurpleRoses123 New Member

    Thank you. This is what I've tried to explain to the council.
    Fingers crossed a new Inspection gets carried out.
     
  3. Ind spark

    Ind spark Active Member

    How would the landlord know who's competent?
    The chap I did my apprenticeship with had no qualifications was told he's a labourer by the JIB, yet he was very competent and probably a lot better than most JIB gold card holders.
     
  4. Tony Goddard

    Tony Goddard Screwfix Select

    The regulations say:-

    The Regulations require landlords to have the electrical installations in their properties inspected and tested by a person who is qualified and competent, at an interval of at least every 5 years.

    They do not go as far as to say what defines qualified and competent

    The electrical safety industry has established competent person schemes. Membership of these will not be compulsory to ensure there is no further pressure placed on the industry, nor undue burden placed on inspectors and testers.

    Membership of a scheme is not compulsory

    When commissioning an inspection, in order to establish if a person is qualified and competent landlords can:

    • check if the inspector is a member of a competent person scheme; or
    • require the inspector to sign a checklist certifying their competence, including their experience, whether they have adequate insurance and hold a qualification covering the current version of the Wiring Regulations and the periodic inspection, testing and certification of electrical installations
    And in this case the electrician is a member of a CPS, so the landlord has fulfilled his obligations, he only needed to check further if he was not.

    There will be no joy from the landlord, electrician or NICEIC here, but hopefully the council housing department will take a look now there interest has been raised.
     
  5. PurpleRoses123

    PurpleRoses123 New Member

    I asked the lady at NICEIC if she would kindly email me following our phone call (I've omitted the company name).

    Good Afternoon,
    Thank you for the recent call with myself at the NICEIC.

    Following our conversation, ‘XYZ’ are registered with the NICEIC as Domestic Installers.

    Domestic Installers are not assessed and therefore cannot create Electrical Installation Condition Reports (EICR) under their Domestic registration.

    They may issue on green non-branded certificates however, these will not be covered by the NICEIC

    ‘XYZ’ have also not opted into the Private Rented Sector (PRS) Scheme.

    Therefore, we have not checked their qualifications or insurances to deem them competent.

    The Landlord would need to have carried out the following checklist to ensure competence:
    • Adequate insurance. This should include at least £2 million public liability insurance and £250,000 professional indemnity insurance
    • A qualification covering the current version of the wiring regulations (BS 7671)
    • A qualification covering the periodic inspection, testing and certification of electrical installations
    • At least two years’ experience in carrying out periodic inspection and testing
     
  6. Tony Goddard

    Tony Goddard Screwfix Select

    What you say from the NICEIC is correct from their end I'm sure, but the government regulations simply state:-

    When commissioning an inspection, in order to establish if a person is qualified and competent landlords can:

    • check if the inspector is a member of a competent person scheme; or
    • require the inspector to sign a checklist certifying their competence, including their experience, whether they have adequate insurance and hold a qualification covering the current version of the Wiring Regulations and the periodic inspection, testing and certification of electrical installations
    The "or" is important, it doesn't say that you should check what status of member the electrician is within the competent persons scheme - so whilst the NICEIC have their own internal systems, the government has only told the landlord to check if they are a member.

    Landlord "Hello Mr Smith, do you d EICRs on rented properties

    Mr Smith "indeed I do"

    Landlord "can I ask if you are a member of a CPS"

    Mr Smith "Yes, I'm in the NICEIC"

    Landlord "thats great, when can you do it"

    The landlord has completed his check, as prescribed by the government! in law they call it plausable deniability. The landlord can say, plausably, that he engaged a member of a CPS, the government does not say he needs to do any further checks on a cps member - that is on the other side of "or"

    An added layer of complication comes in if the property is managed by an agent and they booked the inspection!!

    Stick with the housing officer, try and get them to send a housing inspector out.
     
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  7. Tony Goddard

    Tony Goddard Screwfix Select

    NICEIC Checklist from your post
    • Adequate insurance. This should include at least £2 million public liability insurance and £250,000 professional indemnity insurance
    • A qualification covering the current version of the wiring regulations (BS 7671)
    • A qualification covering the periodic inspection, testing and certification of electrical installations
    • At least two years’ experience in carrying out periodic inspection and testing
    Government Regs Checklist

    checklist certifying their competence, including their experience, whether they have adequate insurance and hold a qualification covering the current version of the Wiring Regulations and the periodic inspection, testing and certification of electrical installations

    Not quite the same are they! the NICEIC has expanded on things, but these expansions are theirs

    And the government makes it clear the landlord doesn't have to do this if he can satisfy himself the contractor is a scheme member.

    but they make very little else clear, but come on, what do you expect from our government.


    Landlords like yours make me furious, I'm an electrician, and I'm a landlord, I've had the same tennants for 16 years, last year they asked if they could have a new kitchen - I said go out and choose one, but don't skimp on quality, design the layout and we'll get it done. My tennant came up with a smashing layout and chose a really nice kitchen from a small local firm, granite worktops, Miele appliances, the works - it took an age getting it all due to covid, but they are made up with it - I've set them too planning a new bathroom now. They also don't know it, but when Covid hit, thinking that any of us could be snuffed out, i worried for them if my number was called, so I changed my will to leave the place to them should the worst happen - after all its their home - I can't take it with me!! (hopefully that won't happen though!!)
     
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  8. PurpleRoses123

    PurpleRoses123 New Member

    It's more a case of the actual Inspector that's not been named.

    This has been my argument all along, the short visit followed by the cheap fusebox alerted me and at that point I asked all involved for his registration number/qualifications. The lad in question ignored me. The person who arranged it ignored me and the agent at the time ignored me.

    Alarm bells ring for me when there is no transparency and no explanation, it's just not good enough.
     
  9. PurpleRoses123

    PurpleRoses123 New Member

    That checklist is also on the NAPIT website, I don't think it's exclusive to the NICEIC.
     
  10. PurpleRoses123

    PurpleRoses123 New Member

    Oh wow!! I wish you were my landlord!!! That's amazing what you have done.

    Too many of the bad ones about giving good ones a bad name.
    Government guidelines are rubbish on most things, someone somewhere can always find a way to wriggle out of them.
    Just wish more people were like you and did the right thing, common decency goes a long way.
     
  11. Tony Goddard

    Tony Goddard Screwfix Select

    I totally agree that you are being shafted to coin a phrase, and clearly there is a lot going on in the background - the difficulty will be proving anything.

    The best shot is the council, I would come it a bit with the child safety issue, you could also try the damsel in distress bit as well (I'm all for feminism / equality etc. but why not use the stereotype to your advantage!!), you know, say you don't understand this stuff, but you are really worried about your childs safety etc.

    Ask if the council has any electricians on staff (it probably does) that it could send round to have a look - or ask the council to ask the NICEIC to send their area supervising engineer round to look.

    I have a feeling if you can just get someone to cross the threshold with the technical skills, that housing will listen to, you stand a chance - After all, I'm assuming the council actually pays the landlord, and you pay the council? - so they have responsibilities - the only reason the scheme exists is because there arn't enough council places out there - which are kept up together.
     
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  12. Tony Goddard

    Tony Goddard Screwfix Select

    Kind of you to say so! Kindness to each other is something often forgotten - we are all in this together, the current crumby circumstances, and life - take a walk round any cemetary, and you realise we are all very equal!!

    But, looking after your rental property makes loads of sense too, by keeping mine up together I am maintaining it's value, by making my tenant feel cosy, it means they look after the place and keep it nice. By buying quality fixtures and appliances I spend less time doing upkeep. It just makes sense.

    Unfortunately there are a lot of landlords out there who don't care, and a good few who can only just afford to be landlords, a lot have mortgages upon mortgages and although they look like they are flying high, in reality they are only just covering the repayments and the rental of their flash BMW - its a house of cards that could very well collapse some time soon!
     
  13. PurpleRoses123

    PurpleRoses123 New Member

    It's actually a private rental. When I divorced 10 years ago this was going free, it belongs to my BIL and his ex wife jointly. They had someone staying here who was leaving (after thoroughly wrecking the place!).
    So I was desperate for somewhere and at the time my kids were very small.
    Nothing was done officially apart from a deposit and TA. But he never protected the deposit and I went about 7 years without smoke alarms fitted or gas checked.
    I spent too long trying not to cause a problem. I would report an issue and he would promise to fix it but it would take ages. An example, my daughters pendant light fitting took 18 months to sort.
    But as I say , he now wants to sell as its all too much of a hassle and ex wife wants off of it so she can buy with new chap.

    Council Housing Standards were my last option, they support all private tennants in enforcing certain things.

    My concerns so far have only been dealt with over the phone due to covid but they're actually coming to do a full inspection next Friday now.

    I get full Housing benefit which I have to top up because it doesn't cover the full rent. But yes, in a way the government are paying the landlord for me to be here.

    It's really fantastic what you have done for your tennants. It really is. More landlords need to understand that it is a tennants home and not just a money making thing.

    Though tennants like me get a bad name. I'm judged because I'm a single mum on benefits but life can change. I used to have a very good job and own my own home. Circumstances change.
    All I see is "no DSS" like I'm some kind of pariah that's going to trash a place and run up debts lol.
     
  14. Tony Goddard

    Tony Goddard Screwfix Select

    Great that you have someone coming to look.

    You are not a pariah, people end up on low money for lots of reasons, and things can change very quickly. And you do have a very good, very important job, you are a mum, just about the most important job there is!
     
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  15. MGW

    MGW Screwfix Select

    The law states
    The Guide talks about insurance etc. But that is only the guide, the law is rather basic, at the time the law was passed and written we still had to allow other common market workers to work in the UK, so there is no qualification to say you can do an EICR although most would say City & Guilds 2391.

    But if my son-in-law wrote out an EICR it would be hard to prove he did not have the knowledge, although he doesn't. Although we say BS 7671 it gives a design date after which it needs to comply with that edition, so if designed in 1950's as long as the design has not charged, then hard to show it needs upgrading even when we know really it should be RCD protected etc.

    So the forcing bit is still the electricity at work act, as some point be it a council worker, policeman, or doctor some one will visit and the house has to be safe for them, but I can live 24/7 in a caravan or boat with 12 volt only, so hard to show not habitable because of lack of 230 volt electrics.

    So with a solid fuel cooker and some spigots for oil lamps it need little more, I remember gas lights in my aunties house. Not used she had electric fitted, but the old fittings were still on the wall, but were never converted for north sea gas.

    And this is a problem, landlords can get away with providing very little, and owner occupied even less, my daughter in law moved into my old house and has been living with a one ring 13 amp hot plate for last 2 years, no oven, just a microwave. My son just has not got around to fitting them yet. He is also an electrician.

    My daughter also has no cooker at the moment, OK she has decided to rip out a kitchen and fit a new one, but it is hard to force anyone's hand.

    Don't get me wrong, I think every house should be reasonably updated, I have most mod cons in my own house, but to get basic heating, and lighting is all that is needed to be habitable. As far as I am concerned mores the pity, as I am forced to pay council tax on my garden room independent to my house as the council have classed it as an independent dwelling, it not, but I can't get them to change their mind.
     
  16. PurpleRoses123

    PurpleRoses123 New Member

    It's all very complicated isn't it.

    Hopefully the council Housing Standards will be able to resolve it for me.
     
  17. PurpleRoses123

    PurpleRoses123 New Member

    Thank you...so kind of you to say. Its definitely not an easy job especially now they're teenagers! Haha
     
  18. jonathanc

    jonathanc Screwfix Select


    I have to admit to being bemused here. Why should the council upgrade you daughters are n laws kitchen just because your son can’t get around to it or if you still own the house, you haven’t.

    As to the garden room: the laws on council tax are clear and can easily be managed. I built an annex that is exempt from council tax when empty because I ensured it complied with the council tax requirements at the planning application stage. If I had just built it a) I would be looking at paying council tax but moreover b) it would have been pulled down because of the lack of permission in the green belt.


    But back to the subject. It’s not about proving the person who did the inspection is not qualified. The burden of proof rests on the landlord to demonstrate that the inspector is qualified and competent and that they have done the appropriate checks before instructing the inspector. In this case this is the area the council should focus on. Not the person signing the certificate but the person doing the inspection
     
  19. MGW

    MGW Screwfix Select

    Yes @jonathanc is correct, it states "The landlord must ensure that the electrical safety standards are met during any period when the residential premises(2) are occupied under a specified tenancy."

    Further is says:-

    “electrical safety standards” means the standards for electrical installations in the eighteenth edition of the Wiring Regulations, published by the Institution of Engineering and Technology and the British Standards Institution as BS 7671: 2018(3);

    The rules for an EICR do not tie in with the new law, there is nothing when doing an EICR to say it must comply with current edition of BS 7671 as if it were a new design, in fact it did, this was code 4, but the IET said it was causing confusion and it was removed, so the two main codes at Code C1 = dangerous and Code C2 = potential dangerous the codes were changed from 1,2,3,4 to C1, C2, C3 so you know which coding system is being used.

    So an EICR includes the DNO equipment, clearly only inspection, but this is excluded from the new Landlord laws, and
    which clearly with cover items like immersion heater, oven, dish washer, washing machine, tumble drier, and cooker. i.e. items which are not unplugged after use. However they would normally be considered as in-service electrical equipment, and not part of the installation so would be normally tested during PAT testing or correct name is the inspection and testing of in-service electrical equipment.

    There has always been a little cross over between PAT testing and installation testing, in the main the guy doing installation testing also tests any equipment without a plug and socket, simply because the guy doing PAT testing is often semi-skilled, and has not got the equipment to test fixed equipment. There is also the equipment which is under contract. For example the boiler, which would normally be inspected and tested by a boiler specialist.

    So there is a need for some one to over see all inspection and testing, and ensure nothing is missed out. There are always exceptions, I did the inspection and testing on a portable batching plant, it took 3 electricians 2 days to complete, and included tested e-stops on gates etc.

    The simple fact is the EICR does not show it complies with 18th edition wiring regulations, all it does is show it is safe to use. To have a landlords EICR and normal EICR is daft, it needs a different name, in the 70's I would inspect and test motor vehicles as part of a service, but the government inspection and testing was called after the agency in control, kept changing names DoE, and MOT the latter name stuck even when it changed name.

    We had a special book which gave all the tolerances permitted, it was no longer up to the mechanic to say that's good enough, but that has not happened with the EICR, it should have had it's own book, and not tried to latch on to BS 7671, which states
    and
    sorry not got 2018 version to hand.

    It has always been a problem to inspect and test some thing to a previous edition, as no one has all the editions to hand, so "potential dangerous" is far better, but it means the electrician is not wrong passing the installation, the landlord may be wrong, but the electrician has not done anything wrong by passing an installation that complies with previous edition, he can list all the bits where it does not comply with BS7671:2018 as code C3's so he has listed all the faults, but not failed it due to the faults.

    So to be frank to get any house that complies with every requirement of BS 7671:2018 is very unlikely, and there was until we left the EU nothing to stop a house being wired to any other European standard, I think you can still wire a house to German standard so it can be used by German workers while staying over here, it will not comply with BS7671, and can't be passed by scheme members, but the LABC can still issue a completion certificate.

    So as it stands you can have a house which is legal to use, but will not comply with BS 7671.
     
  20. adgjl

    adgjl Member

    NICEIC registered companies have access to three types of firms, coloured red, purple and green.

    The red forms are used by Approved Contractors.

    The purple forms are “defined scope” otherwise known as “Domestic Installers”, which does not necessarily include EICRs, but can as an”add on” option.

    The green forms can be purchased by anyone, unlike the red and purple ones (which can only be purchased by companies with the appropriate registration). A “Domestic Installer” is quite within their rights to use a green form for an EICR, if it is not included in their membership scope. What they must not do, is carry out the EICR as if they were registered.

    As well as Tony’s list, the inspection must be carried out to the latest edition of the standard - the eighteenth edition with the first amendment (known as BS7671:2018/A1:2020). Earlier editions of the standard have been withdrawn by BSI group (the British Standards Institute). An inspection to a withdrawn version of a standard is pointless and a waste of money in my opinion. The intention is to demonstrate whether the installation is still acceptable compared to today’s standards.

    just to finish, after the electrician has finished their inspection, they then code all these points showing how much of a concern each one is. An overall assessment is then made to decide if the installation is “safe for continued use”.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2021
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