EICR Certificate

Discussion in 'Electricians' Talk' started by Lesco, Sep 9, 2021.

  1. Lesco

    Lesco New Member

    Hello all,

    I have an electrician booked in to do an EICR next week and wanted to know what this involves?

    I’ll ensure the fuse board is clearly accessible.

    Would I have to make all sockets available? Some are hidden behind furniture.

    Also I’ve just had my kitchen refurbished and the appliances are all less than a year old and can be switched on and off using the fused spur switch. Would the electrician inspect just this fused spur switch? I hope we won’t have to move appliances as they are integrated.

    I’ve attached photos of the switches to ensure one quoted the right thing.

    Thank you all, as always!
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Bazza-spark

    Bazza-spark Screwfix Select

  3. Fusebox Wales

    Fusebox Wales Member

    It depends on how much they've charged. If it's a cheap job they probably won't look at much at all. However, a full and proper EICR will require access to every single electrical point. That said, there is scope for you to agree limitations with the contractor - this could reasonably include not accessing points behind built-in appliances.

    https://www.fuseboxwales.net/
     
    ElecCEng likes this.
  4. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    According to the GN 10% random inspection then complete inspection if the 10% give cause for concern.
     
  5. MGW

    MGW Screwfix Select

    I would agree with @Coloumb in commercial premises we do try to select different sockets etc to remove and check each time we do an inspection, but it is clearly not required to remove every socket in a 5 year old new built when doing the first EICR, the inspector has to use some common sense.

    The EICR has always been a problem, the linked IET web page says
    I have lost count of the number of times I have read a report and said I can't see anything wrong, what has the inspector seen?

    To see either bonding required in bathroom or a RCD needs fitting makes sense, to see two separate entries one saying it needs bonding and the other it needs RCD protection is just confusing, yes may be true, but no need to list the same fault twice.

    But the LIM is to me a problem, we have always used the LIM, be it 10%, 20% or 50% does not really matter, but in most homes it is impractical to inspect all, the person who sets the LIM is the person ordering the work, so for example a new kitchen is installed in Wales for example and the LABC gets a third part inspector to look at the kitchen, clearly LIM will be kitchen only, not interested in rest of the house, but in the kitchen every cable run and socket outlet will be looked at, and the electrician is likely instructed by the LABC to do it as if it was an installation certificate.

    So a prospective home owner may ask the inspector to select areas he feels may cause a problem, and LIM his inspection to an hour. All they want at this stage is to know likely cost to correct errors found.

    But inspectors with limited time will likely make errors, with this house the inspector noted a redundant fuse box hidden in the ceiling space, however it was not redundant.

    There are exceptions with inspections, with a car MOT it was the Ministry of transport who set the limits, not person ordering the work, it has changed over the years, and in spite of the responsibility changing to DOE and many others the name MOT stuck, it seems strange with the Landlord EICR the owner still sets the limits, but until some court makes case law, the owner can still set the limits.
     
  6. The Happy Builder

    The Happy Builder Screwfix Select

    Why do you want the EICR?
     
    ElecCEng likes this.
  7. ElecCEng

    ElecCEng Screwfix Select

    I would expect all sockets to be accessible when carrying out an EICR. Not unreasonable to expect a few bits of furniture to be moved once every 5 years. Not an issue during tenancy change.

    Would only consider % sampling if I had previous reports available, good knowledge of the property, other maintenance undertaken etc.

    Fitted appliances are difficult. I would advise the client agree that the inspector tests to the isolator and notes it as a limitation on the report.
     
    Fusebox Wales likes this.
  8. The Happy Builder

    The Happy Builder Screwfix Select

    It’s generally easy to determine if the appliances are correctly earthed with a wander lead.
     
  9. Lesco

    Lesco New Member

    Our freeholder, the council has asked for it, as we live in a council flat. I think it’s a tick box exercise for them following Grenfell. They’ve asked for gas certificate and whether we have a fire alarm.
     
  10. Lesco

    Lesco New Member

    Thank you all for the advice and reading material. Much appreciated.

    The quote is relatively low, so will see what materialise.
     
  11. The Happy Builder

    The Happy Builder Screwfix Select

    I hope it’s more than a tick box exercise, if it takes less than four hours to do the EICR including the paperwork be very wary of what you are getting.
     
  12. MGW

    MGW Screwfix Select

    In which case they should instruct the person doing the EICR, as they wanted to do when my mother had a wet room built, I was told this is our list of approved inspectors, have you any preference, I would pay council, they paid the inspector, he who pays the piper calls the tune.

    I was in the end able to persuade him I was qualified enough to do my own inspection and testing, and I was unlikely to put my mother at risk, but I was not going to be allowed to select any tom, dick or harry, the inspector had to be from their list, which was the right way of doing it.

    I have a C&G 2391, and I will have it to the day I die, there is not the option as with a car driving licence to revoke the C&G 2391, so I could be in the final stages of dementia, some scheme providers sell their forms to anyone, it seems there is a colour code for if being tested under the umbrella of the scheme, or not, but it has resulted in forms with a scheme providers logo being used when the inspector has not been approved or tested by the scheme provider to do that work, and he does not need to even be a scheme member to do an EICR, they are not covered by Part P.

    It is not like a MOT, I can't be struck off any register and told I can't do any more testing, clearly if I get it wrong, then you can try and claim from my professional indemnity insurance if I have any, but it is hard to prove some one has got it wrong.

    As long as I list the faults, if I give a C3 instead of a C2, it is near impossible to say I got it wrong.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2021
  13. The Happy Builder

    The Happy Builder Screwfix Select

    I did an EICR for a tenant and put a C2 for lack of fire stopping on part of the installation in the freeholders area, so the freeholder the Queen became responsible for the repair work.

    It did get done and I doubt she ever knew about it. :)

    I would hope that the EICRs being submitted to your freeholder, the Council, will have someone in their office savvy enough to reject the inadequate EICRs they will get.
     
  14. ElecCEng

    ElecCEng Screwfix Select

    Uuuuun-likely…

    :D;)
     
  15. MGW

    MGW Screwfix Select

    I would not think so, my mother was disabled, and as a result the council did some work in the house, I was unable to get minor works, installation, completion, or compliance certificates from them, it was a supply to door bell, originally a 8 volt AC transformer, needed swapping for a 12 volt DC power supply for intercom door bell, they could not find a stand alone power supply so fitted a socket and a walmart type, at that time either the socket should have been clearly marked door bell only, or should have been RCD protected, test with RCD tester and it did not trip, and socket in good area to recharge mobility scooter, so whole idea of mains supply to door bell so it always worked, as social workers had not been able to get mother to answer door, was not improved as door bell ended up unplugged and scooter charged instead.

    However that is a by the way, point is did not matter how many times I asked for paperwork, it did not arrive, in the end whole house rewired.

    But the comment
    is likely spot on, and they are not the least bit worried if good or bad EICR as long as they can say NOT MY FAULT should some thing go wrong.

    If we look at the new landlord law as an example it says "A private landlord must ensure that the electrical safety standards are met" and continues "inspected and tested at regular intervals by a qualified person." where the "“qualified person” means a person competent to undertake the inspection and testing required under regulation 3(1) and any further investigative or remedial work in accordance with the electrical safety standards;"

    The problem is how does the owner work out who is competent? It is easy in the trade, we know the C&G 2391 shows the person is competent, and we remember the old definitions. Competent was one step above skilled in that he/she not only looked after his safety but also that of others, but that definition has been dropped, we now only have ordinary, instructed and skilled.

    I don't have a clue where my certificates are, I have taken them to so many interviews and rarely have they taken copies, and I did not got to jobs with them, nor did I take copies of the insurance certificate, the EICR asks for the serial numbers of test instruments, but not even seen a tick box for insurance or holds a C&G 2391. I had to do one not so long ago at work, to say how some one had not complied with safety requirements, only way to show what qualifications I have was to include FdEng behind my name, and that could have been in motor vehicle for all they knew, so really shows nothing.

    I know my son was suppose to keep copies of inspection and testing, but when he went to live in a narrow boat, there was simply no room, it was on his PC, until it was replaced, but had some one wanted to question him, it would not have been easy when he was of no fixed abode. And once he started to work cards in, he did not renew his insurance, so claiming off him would have been a problem.

    So how does the owner ensure he has used a competent person when the category no longer exists?
     
  16. Lesco

    Lesco New Member

    An updated (for those of you interested).

    Electrician came round and had a look at the fuse board and RCD and wouldn’t carry out the EICR, as the RCD wasn’t working.

    Not sure if he’s pulling my leg, but also said that fuse board is 30 years plus and needs to be replaced. So he didn’t do an EICR as due to the RCD not working it would have failed.

    He’s quoted a replacement of fuse board and RCD to be £450. Then said he could do a fuse board with built in RCD, for that price.

    I had a smart meter put in last week and the two guys that came didn’t say a thing about the fuse board.

    Kitchen has also been recently renovated and new electrics hooked up no problem.

    Not sure what to believe. He said fuse board / RCD this should have been flagged as part of survey report when purchasing the place a couple of years back.

    Interested to hear your thoughts. I’ve attached a photo of my fuse board and RCD.
     

    Attached Files:

  17. jonathanc

    jonathanc Screwfix Select

    how did he determine the RCD was not working?

    and the EIRC is not pass/fail. things are coded C1, C2 and C3.
     
  18. Tony Goddard

    Tony Goddard Screwfix Select

    The board is old, whether it needs changing or not would be decided as a result of an EICR that he hasn't done.

    The fact that the RCD does not operate is not a reason not to carry out all the other tests - the RCD would be a defect for sure, and an important one, but the data collected from testing the installation (its not just about the board) would highlight any other faults that will just manifest themselves as soon as the new, fully RCD protected board is fitted.

    You need an EICR and you need someone who is competent to do one - the guy is clearly a board change artist (in this case changing the board is likely a good move) and the trouble is as soon as he's done it he will be wanting more money to correct defects that should have been found in the EICR he hasnt done!!

    New electrician time!!
     
  19. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    Why would you keep that board tony? if it really is well over 30 years then it doesn't owe anyone anything. Surly replacing it with a split load of fully rcbo board is going to be better than a board that's front loaded with an RCD that's bust anyway. ANy decent spark would do the EICR as part of the work anyway. Sounds ok to me for 450 dollars.
     
  20. Tony Goddard

    Tony Goddard Screwfix Select

    Not saying it should be kept, I would advocate changing it based on what I can see, but I would have carried out the EICR, taken all the IR readings, Earth Continuity, Loop etc. on the various circuits. Then quoted on what needed doing (for all we know there may be unearthed light fittings or poor IR or borrowed neutrals that hasn't been found)

    Sure, £450 for the new CU, fair enough, but as he hasn't done any testing he doesn't know it's just a new CU thats needed - and I know from painful experience in my apprentice years the hole you dig yourself putting 30mA RCBo's or RCD's onto circuits more leaky than my baby godson.
     

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