EICR code for earthless lighting circuits?

Discussion in 'Electricians' Talk' started by rogerk101, Sep 11, 2022.

  1. Bazza-spark

    Bazza-spark Screwfix Select

    @rogerk101 so sorry that you find honest answers unhelpful, however as a spark that spent 46 years in the trade and as a past member of the IET I can only speak honestly and truthfully.

    If that doesn't suit you because it is not what you want to hear then that is your problem. I stick to my opinions.
     
  2. sparko69

    sparko69 Screwfix Select

    Maybe you shouldn't ask for suggestions if they may offend you so much?
    Surely you can just pick and choose which answers/replies are relevant for you and disregard the rest?
     
  3. Bazza-spark

    Bazza-spark Screwfix Select

    Maybe you and he need to review your facts.

    AMD2 came into force March 28th 2022 and could be implemented immediately. BS7671 A1 2018 remains current until its withdrawal 27 September 2022. So one of you is telling porkies about the "new regs from 1 Sept 2022".

    Now, is that him, or is that you telling porkies?

    Beware - Pinocchio's nose grew for that!

    https://www.theiet.org/media/press-...2-2022-to-bs-76712018-iet-wiring-regulations/
     
  4. adgjl

    adgjl Screwfix Select

    Despite the confusion over the date of the latest amendment to BS7671, I am please your electrician isn't trying to conduct the EICR to the version that was current when the installation was done, as that benefits nobody.

    There is also the "well it is only valid on the day it was issued" argument that needs correcting. Whilst an EICR only covers things / wiring that was there on the day it was done, the legal liability for what was written lasts for six years from the date of issue under British Law. In theory (and I am not sure how many do), that means that you may need to keep your PI insurance running for six years after you have completed your last EICR . . . (tin hat on, I'll get my coat!)
     
  5. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    7671 allows for backwards compatibly. He should be doing the inspection to 7671 not to his own standard.

    If a EICR was found to be incorrect then the plaintiff would sue for recovery of any damages caused, most likely covered by the inspectors insurance. There isn't a six year law. More likely who ever is issuing the EICR is obliged to keep records of it for 6 years.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2022
    Kaylee87 likes this.
  6. adgjl

    adgjl Screwfix Select

    No it doesn't. Previous versions of the standard are cancelled after a few months. The last amendment (blue cover) is due to be cancelled at the end of September this year, when the new amendment (brown cover) becomes the only valid version of the standard. Working to a cancelled standard is fraud.
    Indeed, and the liability for what has been written lasts for six years.
     
  7. chesterw

    chesterw Well-Known Member

    Anything you do as a skilled person that causes damage could lead to your criminal prosecution, and there are no statutory limits on the prosecution of crimes in the UK except for ‘summary’ offences, which are those that would be tried in a magistrates court and the limit is six months.
     
  8. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    Fraud? Seems the IET have a different view...from the I and T GN...

    3.12 Periodic inspection of installations constructed to an earlier edition of BS 7671 or the IEE Wiring
    Regulations...

    In all cases the inspection should be carried out against the current edition of BS 7671. It is likely that there will be items that do
    not comply with that edition but this does not necessarily mean that the installation is unsafe. If the inspector considers that an
    item, although not warranting Code C1 or C2, requires improvement, it should be given code C3 on the Electrical Installation
    Condition Report. If the item does not require improvement it does not need to be recorded as an observation.


    Perhaps you could draft a strongly worded letter to the IET airing your difference of opinion?

    No, it means you need to keep the paperwork for 6 years, if there is such a requirement. Liability for your report and/or any consequences arising from it are totally different.
     
  9. The Happy Builder

    The Happy Builder Screwfix Select

    The legislation is specific:

    “electrical safety standards” means the standards for electrical installations in the eighteenth edition of the Wiring Regulations, published by the Institution of Engineering and Technology and the British Standards Institution as BS 7671: 2018(5);

    5) ISBN-13:978-1-78561-170-4. Copies can be obtained from the Institution of Engineering and Technology, Michael Faraday House, Six Hill Way, Stevenage SG1 2AY.

    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2020/9780111191934#f00005

    Not the Thirteenth Edition of the Wiring Regulations published in 1955, which was presumably the edition of the Wiring Regulations in use at the time this house was wired.

    There isn’t an electrician under the age of seventy who worked to the Thirteenth Edition of the Wiring Regulations.
     
  10. adgjl

    adgjl Screwfix Select

    There is no need. Nothing you have quoted contradicts my statement.
     
  11. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    That's weird; I can't find the part that says the IET say "working to a cancelled standard is fraud" in the above guidance, unless for some reason I've perhaps missed something?
     
  12. adgjl

    adgjl Screwfix Select

    You have indeed. The IET are not promoting working to an out of date cancelled version of BS7671 in any shape or form.
     
  13. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    yes you work to the current version but not when carrying out an eicr. Just because a cu isn’t metal it doesn’t automatically get a c1. Giving it a c3 doesn’t count as “fraud” either. Given the guidance is clear on this I don’t understand why you think taking account of an older standard in an eicr is fraud.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2022
  14. The Happy Builder

    The Happy Builder Screwfix Select

    There's a seventy-two-year-old electrician reading this thinking "well, it was okay when I started my apprenticeship".
     
  15. adgjl

    adgjl Screwfix Select

    No, but carrying out an EICR today based on the 14th edition just to get a pass, most likely is. Earlier (withdrawn) versions of the standard are “historical interest” only.
     
  16. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    Why? It was considered perfectly safe back then so why not now? You don't fail a vintage car on an MOT just because it has drum brakes, no ABS, air bags etc. Improvements might make something "safer", it doesn't make what came before it more "un-safe".

    You are bound by the guidance given in 7671 which refers to previous versions, not what you personally or moral response to a given situation might be.
     
  17. The Happy Builder

    The Happy Builder Screwfix Select

    The 14th Edition was published in 1966 and requires lighting circuits to be earthed.

    It was the 13th edition published in 1955 that this installation was installed to, the legislation is specific:

    “electrical safety standards” means the standards for electrical installations in the eighteenth edition of the Wiring Regulations, published by the Institution of Engineering and Technology and the British Standards Institution as BS 7671: 2018(5);

    Why would an electrician produce a report and transfer the risk from the landlord to themselves for a few measly quid, when the likelihood of the circuit being as installed are virtually nil?
     
  18. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    your not transferring any risk. The aim of the EICR is to establish if a given install is satisfactory or unsatisfactory, not to decide if it is any less "safer" than it was when it was installed based on current standards. Like I said, plenty of vintage cars still don't have seat belts fitted, so how are they still allowed to pass an MOT.

    This only comes down to a moral choice - roger should upgrade the circuits to a more modern standard because he want's to rent it out, but that's his prerogative, not the person doing the EICR.
     
  19. rogerk101

    rogerk101 Screwfix Select

    Roger has decided to bite the bullet and rewire the lighting circuits. It's a 1963 house so perfectly legal, but if we decide to stay abroad, I don't want ever to have to think about this again.

    So I'll be rolling up my sleeves and ripping stuff apart. One thing for sure is that I'll be taking neutrals to all the switches in case it ever becomes interesting to install smart switches. While I'm at it, I'll install another 100mm of loft insulation so I can get a better EPC than I'd otherwise get.

    The worst part of the whole lot is the redecoration, which I hate. Where are you based, @Astramax ?
     
  20. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    As you are installing a new ctt, this will be notifiable. You will also need to issue a MWC or EIC to confirm compliance with 7671
     

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