EICR double check

Discussion in 'Electricians' Talk' started by DC70, Jul 13, 2021.

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  1. DC70

    DC70 New Member

    Hello,

    I had an EICR test come back as unsatisfactory with a C2 fail for "RCD Rating Not Adaquate" noted in the observations. The report listed the Cooker, Kitchen and Ring circuits each with 30A / 30ma RCD, then a water heater circuit with a 20A /30ma RCD and the lighting circuit with a 10A / 30ma RCD. The property is a 2-bed purpose build apartment.

    Can someone confirm what is inadequate so I know what to get seen to please?

    Thanks!
    David
     
  2. ElecCEng

    ElecCEng Screwfix Select

    I would go back to whoever wrote the report and get them to clarify what they mean. Far too many in our trade seem to think vague drivel is acceptable on an EICR…

     
  3. The Happy Builder

    The Happy Builder Screwfix Select

    Ask the person who wrote the report, it could be a 40/60/63 amp upfront RCD protected by a 80 or 100 amp fuse.
     
    ElecCEng likes this.
  4. FlyByNight

    FlyByNight Screwfix Select

    Picture of the Consumer Unit showing the "RCDs" would be useful too.
     
    ElecCEng likes this.
  5. Tony Goddard

    Tony Goddard Screwfix Select

    A picture will paint 1000 words, I'll guess at an under rated up front or auxillary RCD
     
  6. DC70

    DC70 New Member

    Thanks for the responses. There were no pictures in the report. I'm distant from the property so can't take one. I asked the author of the report for a further explanation. I didn't get one but did get a quote for £590 to remediate. The works list said:

    Remedial Works
    -New Consumer Unit 18th edition with RCD protection
    -Upgraded Earthing Arrangements
    -Includes Materials & Labour
    -After Board Change there is 50% chance that the new consumer unit
    might trip, if that is the case it might be due to the fault in existing wiring
    and Further investigation has to be carried out on the property.

    The "upgraded earthing arrangements" related to the other C2 fail on the report which said "Earthing conductor size not compliant(542.3, 543.1.1)" . This was repeated at item 3.4 in the check list as a fail for "Adequacy of earthing conductor size (542.3, 543.1.1)".

    Property is (I guess) 40 years old. Does all that sound legit, or does it raise any flags?

    Thanks for the responses.
    David
     
  7. Tony Goddard

    Tony Goddard Screwfix Select

    -After Board Change there is 50% chance that the new consumer unit
    might trip, if that is the case it might be due to the fault in existing wiring
    and Further investigation has to be carried out on the property.

    Really, is this a gas fitter doing the job or an electrician!!!

    can you upload a scan of the report, obviously redact the name/address
     
  8. FlyByNight

    FlyByNight Screwfix Select

    Is there anyone close-by that can get a picture?

    40 yo - but is teh CU that old? and having RCDs mentions suggests work has been done since.

    Can you remember the layout - is it an up front RCD, in the CU or separate RCBOs on each circuit?
     
  9. jonathanc

    jonathanc Screwfix Select

    of course the above is absolute rubbish, not least before energising the board all circuits will be tested but more importantly there is a 100% chance the board might trip, because at any point in time it is a certainty that any board might trip. Or did he mean there is a 50% chance the board will trip. over what period was he considering the probability of tripping: minute, hour, day, month or year. the chap clearly doesn't even understand what he has written...
     
  10. DC70

    DC70 New Member

    I've attached a redacted copy of the report.

    Good idea. I'll ask someone. Is there something specific that I should be looking for in what the CU looks like?

    Thanks again.
    David
     

    Attached Files:

  11. The Happy Builder

    The Happy Builder Screwfix Select

    That EICR is completely lacking in detail, I would want to see some photos to determine what is what.

    It says all the circuits are protected by a 30 mA and the the RCD rating is inadequate, I presume it must be a 60 amp upfront RCD protected by a 80 amp fuse.

    You definitely should request more information and be told exactly what the problem is.
     
  12. The Happy Builder

    The Happy Builder Screwfix Select

    I looked at the EICR again, it says there’s a 100 amp fuse and the main switch is a 80 amp BS5419 device which is an isolator not a RCD, but rated as a 30 mA RCD also the MCBs add up to 120 amps so don’t limit the current on the main switch/RCD.

    Without looking at it I would not want to comment on what the exact issue is, because there’s discrepancies in that description, it could just be the wrong BRitish Standard number or there’s a main switch and an upfront RCD with the description not making it clear what is being taken to be the main switch and mixed information entered on the report.
     
  13. DC70

    DC70 New Member

    Thanks again for the responses. I'll ask again for more detail. I noticed the report says that the Main Protective Conductors are bonded to the Gas Installation Pipes. I'll ask where that was located - since we don't have gas.

    David.
     
  14. jonathanc

    jonathanc Screwfix Select

    Or you may argue that as that such a basic matter is wrong the whole report is flawed and needs to be repeated. Certainly the work product : the certificate is faulty…
     
  15. The Happy Builder

    The Happy Builder Screwfix Select

    I try to go through life only dealing with issues that only really need dealing with, otherwise you can run yourself ragged.

    The report says there’s no sign of any alterations, but then it says there’s not a mixed colours label on the consumer unit, you cannot really have it both ways. If there’s not been any alterations it will presumably have cables with all the same insulation colours.

    Again, it’s not a big issue in it self, but actually putting a label on whilst doing the inspection and testing is not a big issue rather than writing down an observation.

    I wonder if it has a RCD testing label?
     
  16. MGW

    MGW Screwfix Select

    I have wondered when some one will pick up on an EICR for wrong type of RCD? As far as I am concerned a RCD is an extra with TN supply, only with a TT supply is it the primary protection device, but I note for example Bosch boilers stipulate type A, and solar panels and electric car charging type B.

    But rating could refer to type, leakage current, over current, prospective short circuit current, and I have seen arguments before as to when 60 amp RCD used with 100 amp DNO fuse and MCB's totalling over 60 amp. If one looks at an immersion heater rated 3 kW it will normally use a 16A MCB but would only draw 16 amp under fault conditions, so in real terms 13 amp.

    And BS7671 is not retrospective, so if the design was dated 1992 then still using BS7671:1992 remember design date not date completed.

    It is however very hard to keep to an old design, and unless the inspector has the paperwork showing when designed and when the design has been updated he has no option but consider it was designed yesterday.

    So at work I can look at all the plans for every building and see when designed and any updates, but this is rare with a home. So your really in a position where it is very hard to point at errors.

    But @jonathanc makes a good point, any error which is clear means the whole report is flawed, and yes needs to be repeated.

    But C2 = potentially dangerous and not any regulation breached, and 230 volt is potentially dangerous so can't really say it's wrong, it is the whim of the tester, and however much I think it is wrong, it does not matter.
     
  17. The Happy Builder

    The Happy Builder Screwfix Select

    Again for earthing arrangement it says “TNS Lim”.

    Again you cannot have a limitation on the earthing type, but apparently it’s also a very good earth connection giving really good test results.

    Now, if it’s TNS what size main earth conductor does it need?
     
  18. The Happy Builder

    The Happy Builder Screwfix Select

    Again for earthing arrangement it says “TNS Lim”.

    Again you cannot have a limitation on the earthing type, but apparently it’s also a very good earth connection giving really good test results.

    Now, if it’s TNS and not TNCS, what size main earth conductor does it need, is there anything wrong with the 10 mm main earth conductor?
     
  19. Sparkielev

    Sparkielev Screwfix Select

    He has put lim on lighting and water heater for continuity and Zs tests so he hasn't tested them but gets perfect insulation results which is odd
     
  20. DC70

    DC70 New Member

    Thanks again for all the comments. I have just heard back from the person who let the tester into the property, and they said he was there for 20 minutes. Does that sound about right for a EICR test? At least I know he was there now - I was wondering because the report said there was earth bonding to gas pipes, when there is no gas at the property.
    David
     

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