Elecrtician Qualifications

Discussion in 'Electricians' Talk' started by Wheel-nut, Mar 17, 2004.

  1. Wheel-nut

    Wheel-nut Member

    Could some of you certified Tradesmen tell me what certificates are necessary to meet the Building Regulations, Insurance and IEE requirement for:

    a) Working unsupervised on domestic Electrical installations

    b) Signing the Building Control "Compliance Certificate for Electrical Installation"

    c) Issuing Test Certificate on completion of minor works

    d) Issuing Test Certificates on completion of major works

    Also, When does this change with Part P? ... and what are the changes.
     
  2. Dewy

    Dewy New Member

    Wheel-nut, read through this forum & you will see that all your questions have altready been answered a number of times.
     
  3. The Trician

    The Trician New Member

    Hi W/N,
    At present, it all boils down to what is defined by the term 'competent Person'. This is the bit we are waiting for the authors of Part P to define for the purposes of the new regulation.
    If you think along the lines as to how CORGI works I'm sure you'll not be far wrong.

    At present, to issue an Electrical Test cert/Minor Works cert you will at least need C&G 2391 to be able to test and inspect correctly to the IEE Regs.

    I'd recommend that you go for the 2381 16 Ed course first, and then have a go at 2391.

    Not much help I know, but we are all in the same boat at present.
     
  4. Wheel-nut

    Wheel-nut Member

    Dewy, Yes, I had read the "Qualifications" thread and whereas there are a lot of view expressed, I could not find a definitive threshhold of certification which made it "compliant with regulations" to work on the four categories I listed. The Best view I gleaned from that discussion was B-A-S's dissertation on the requirements of Part P.

    I am confused with the current requirements, especially by the views of NICEIC which are not enforced by cuttent regulation.

    TT, I think you have clarified my view that this industry is self regulated in that the validity of the label of "Competent Person" would only be tested in the event of an investigation such as a claim or referral to a regulatory body for settlement of a dispute.

    From your view, I would consider that C&G2381 with appropriate experience (or supervision) would establish competence to install. Similarly, C&G2391 .... would apply to Testing and issue of Test Certificates.

    I also accept that CEng FIEE counts for nothing
     
  5. The Trician

    The Trician New Member

    TT, I think you have clarified my view that this
    industry is self regulated in that the validity of
    the label of "Competent Person" would only be tested
    in the event of an investigation such as a claim or
    referral to a regulatory body for settlement of a
    dispute.

    I would rather hope that the 'label' was well and lucidly defined before prior to any dispute being encountered.

    If we are to be regulated, then the IEE would be a way forward, rather than the NICEIC or any other existing Body

    Personally, I don't believe that the reasons put forward for implementing Part P stand up to serious scrutiny.

    Much of this has been driven by scare-mongering the Govt on safety issues, and of course, financial self-interest on behalf of the country's electrical contracting industry.
     
  6. Wheel-nut

    Wheel-nut Member

    I would rather hope that the 'label' was well and
    lucidly defined before prior to any dispute being
    encountered.

    I agree. But unless practitioners are required to be licenced, their credentials do not come under scrutiny until they cock-up and the incident is investigated. Even when investigated, negligence would have to be established.

    If we are to be regulated, then the IEE would be a
    way forward, rather than the NICEIC or any other
    existing Body

    I would agree because the IEE is the Professional Body which is incorporated by Royal Charter to set the standards and practices of this industry. However, the IEE seems to have lost interest in the practical aspects of Electrical Engineering. This void is now being filled by profit making companies.

    Personally, I don't believe that the reasons put
    forward for implementing Part P stand up to serious
    scrutiny.

    I would agree, simply because I cannot see how it would be policed!

    Much of this has been driven by scare-mongering the
    Govt on safety issues, and of course, financial
    self-interest on behalf of the country's electrical
    contracting industry.

    Yes, it would seem so.
     
  7. tallow nob

    tallow nob New Member

    OK - now I have to say my bit......

    Any monkey can pass the required exams in about 2 years.

    I could go and do an accountancy / carpentry / "course" in 2 years.

    I wouldn't be able to cut it in the real world as an accountant or a proper carpenter.

    You can have all the money in the world - but you cannot buy experience.

    Time served on a proper apprenticeship is the only way into really being a "tradesman" "craftsman" whatever monicker you chose.

    Start to think 4 or 5 years learning and then you may be worthy of a decent livelyhood.

    There 'aint no pot of gold at the end of a rainbow for the 2 year fakers - I must get half a dozen of these people looking for work with me every month.

    Don't get me wrong... I'm not against people re - training and moving on BUT it really gives me *****- ache to hear about how easy the game is.

    Call me "old fashioned if you will - and I'm sure some twonk will.... but let's see who can still cut the mustard five years from now.......

    I rest my case.

    TN
     
  8. Wheel-nut

    Wheel-nut Member

    TN, You won't get any disagreement from me.

    I am trying to find out what is needed to comply with the law and the regulations.

    I don't confuse that with competence and experience which are the criteria I use when selecting anybody to work for me. I am trying to establish what credentials they are required to have in order to make their signature worth having on a certificate.

    I am professionally qualified and also Certified by my profession to practice. Also, I have to be re-certified every 3 years or else my licence to practice is revoked.

    I suspect that we are in violent agreement.
     
  9. tallow nob

    tallow nob New Member

    Indeed my friend - we sing from the same song sheet.:)
     
  10. The Trician

    The Trician New Member

    I think that this is one of the most important areas which has been neglected - but how do you police 'experience'?
    There has to be a miniumum Benchmark for assessment but what should it be?
     
  11. tallow nob

    tallow nob New Member

    Ahhh! Trician - now THAT is the question...
    I reckon you need to be time served to have any credibility.
    I don't know of any employer around here who would entertain anyone who hadn't sat a formal apprenticeship.
    The agencies don't seem to mind so much but then really it's a case of "bums on seats" they just want to sell other peoples time and will get away with whatever they can.
    I'm constantly approached by people in training/retraining or just finished all their exams. I'd rather have a 17 year old apprentice who had only done one year on site. His Her:) experience would far outweigh a newbie with all the paperwork in the world.

    ANYONE who is halfway intelligent could bone up and pass a Doctors examinations if they really put their mind to it. I can't see them being allowed to practice though - can you?
    It seems that people are trying to get into the trades via the back door because they think it's a nice wee earner and there is a skills shortage hyped in the national press.
    I really believe it's a passsing fad. Natural selection will rule the day and survival of the fittest will be the end result.
    I'ts a hard enough game especially for the self employed of us who have REAL experience to make a living. I just can't see how newcomers with the "neccesary paperwork" can pull it off.
    Maybe the JIB need to be more involved and move back to the grading system which is at least structured?


    TN
     
  12. LSpark

    LSpark New Member

    i think you will find the JIB, taking an active roll shortly on just the points you have made, and criteria for JIB cards requiers so many years experience, plus its another way to certify ppl are qualified, but will they stand up :?
     
  13. tallow nob

    tallow nob New Member

    I'd like to think so. They seemed to be the benchmark in the late eighties and were quite strict about gradings.
    I'd really be pleased to see them involved in it.

    still - who knows?

    TN
     
  14. The Trician

    The Trician New Member

    Try Googling 'Electrotechnical Assessment' and see what comes up.
     
  15. seavigil

    seavigil New Member

    I think that this is one of the most important areas
    which has been neglected - but how do you police
    'experience'?
    There has to be a miniumum Benchmark for assessment
    but what should it be?

    Perhaps you should be thinking along the lines of a discharge book for probationers along the lines of those used for merchant seamen, and then set a minumum requirement for number/type of completed jobs which must be signed off by a fully fledged sparkie.

    Some tickets can then only be revalidated if the experience has been kept up, eg someone with a class I ticket working on an inshore workboat will have difficulty revalidating for class I due to lack of recent/regular experience.

    DJW
     
  16. LSpark

    LSpark New Member

    yeah im sure JIB will be used soon, i read up on a recent publication which looked hopefull, i agree with all the points posted, but dont completly agree with the aprentiship, i mean yeah its great, but it wouldnt have been possible for me duing my part 2, wouldnt have been compatible, saying that ive worked with my dad (spark) for almost 3 years and gained most of my experience from him, and after i finish up getting my qualifications il obviusly get more experience, i belive its somthing you gain as you go along, getting round problems etc.

    i can understand how you feel tho if there are people just taking all the courses and beleving thats it, im qualified etc, if they think that they totaly stupid, experience
    ----------
    qualifications
    ----------
    time = good spark

    TT, do you happen to know the website for fluke test equipment? :(
    LS
     
  17. LSpark

    LSpark New Member

    and if u didnt get that, the anti-cowboy calculation is Experience + Competence + Qualifications + Time = spark
     
  18. The Trician

    The Trician New Member

    TT, do you happen to know the website for fluke test
    equipment? :(

    I do indeed - Try Fluke.co.uk

    - Best deals I have found are HITEK SALES.

    www.hitek whatever!

    Buck & Hickman inone also deal with Fluke - Or they may have renamed themselves as Farnell in-one.

    Fluke are the MK of the Test kit world I love their stuff.
    Have been using thier kit for years.
    I have a 1520 Insulation Resistance Tester, a 179 multimeter, a 337 clamp-meter, an old 79 mk 2 multimeter.

    The only other stuff I use which is not Fluke is a Megger LCB 2000/2 Loop/RCD tester and an old Martindale neon voltage tester.

    In my view Fluke is the Jackson Pollocks/woofers nuts of the test instrument world - And I don't even work for em :):)




    Not the cheapest but definately the BEST.
     
  19. LSpark

    LSpark New Member

    Try Fluke.co.uk

    - Best deals I have found are HITEK SALES.

    www.hitek whatever!

    Buck & Hickman inone also deal with Fluke - Or they
    may have renamed themselves as Farnell in-one.

    Fluke are the MK of the Test kit world I love their
    stuff.
    Have been using thier kit for years.
    I have a 1520 Insulation Resistance Tester, a 179
    multimeter, a 337 clamp-meter, an old 79 mk 2
    multimeter.

    The only other stuff I use which is not Fluke is a
    Megger LCB 2000/2 Loop/RCD tester and an old
    Martindale neon voltage tester.

    In my view Fluke is the Jackson Pollocks/woofers nuts
    of the test instrument world - And I don't even work
    for em :):)


    Not the cheapest but definately the BEST.

    Thanks alot TT :), well it seems u dont use fluke as ure main test equipment for T + E, but i might have made a mistake, i want to start testing my instalations that i do, and then eventualy take the 2391 (6 mths time).

    martindale look quite good, and are so much cheaper than robin,and they do a nice 16th kit for £699, which does everything u need, polarity,isulation,contiunity,RCD, & Loop .

    il take a look at fluke anyway tho :)
     
  20. ban-all-sheds

    ban-all-sheds New Member

    Personally, I don't believe that the reasons put forward for implementing Part P stand up to serious scrutiny.

    Much of this has been driven by scare-mongering the Govt on safety issues, and of course, financial self-interest on behalf of the country's electrical contracting industry.


    No they don't and yes it has, but sadly it's all too late for that view to hold sway.

    Another bit of news which I am sure will cheer you all up - I'm told that the Part P route of notifying Building Control and having them inspect and test will not in fact be allowed for anybody doing electrical work for financial gain.
    After January 1st 2005 it will be illegal for any person to carry out electrical installation work for financial reward who does not meet the criteria for registration in one of the "Competent Person" schemes. They will not have to join such a scheme, but local authorities are being instructed that only those who meet this criteria will be accepted as competent and thus able to submit applications for works and inspections to the local Building Control Department.
     

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