Elections certification

[AlexPBryn]

Hello

New to this forum and have an issue I need help with ....
I am currently doing a renovation project and last year employed a certified electrician to do the electrics. He completed the 1st Electrics but then failed to reply to a series of questions I had about the job. After about 5 months of asking, I decided to employ another certified electrician. Understandably, the new electrician was not keen to sign off on the 1st electrics. He managed to contact the initial electrician who finally agreed to sign off on the 1st electrics at the end of the job. But the current electrician then told me that there is no provision on an EIC form for allowing two different electricians to sign off on different parts of the electrical work. NAPIT (National Association of Professional Inspectors and Testers.) has advised me to contact the council building control who have informed me that I need to fill in a Regularisation application which would mean they authorise an electrician to test the 1st electrics ... at a cost of £585 !
I would imagine that having two electricians working on two different parts of the same job is not uncommon so my question is .. is there another way of sorting this out without having to resort to the excessive cost of the council application ?
Thanks

Alex

 

[Coloumb]

Was the first spark registered? From what your saying it doesn't look like it. If he is then he would certify and notify the work he has done and issue his own cert. The new spark would do the same thing, but just for his work. You would have two certs but that should cover everything. You could maybe use a multi-signature EIC but it would depend on what sort of work the first spark carried out, ie 1st fix, 2nd fix etc.

 

[malbec4]

I think the title of your post is topical!

There are 3 parts in an EIC that can be signed individually on the certificate. Design, construction and testing. With schemes like NICEIC a 4th signature is required from the Qualified Supervisor of the scheme. Not sure about NAPIT, ECA etc.

Can't you get round it that way?

 

[AlexPBryn]

Was the first spark registered? From what your saying it doesn't look like it. If he is then he would certify and notify the work he has done and issue his own cert. The new spark would do the same thing, but just for his work. You would have two certs but that should cover everything. You could maybe use a multi-signature EIC but it would depend on what sort of work the first spark carried out, ie 1st fix, 2nd fix etc.

Thanks your reply
Yes the first electrician is certified and registered and he has just done the 1st Electrics
I was lead to believe that there is the one EIC certificate which covers all the work done - are you saying that the 1st electrician could simply sign off on 1st electrics independently of any separate 2nd electrics by a different electrician ?
Also, I am not aware of a multi signature EIC ... where would I find this ?
Thanks

Alex

I think the title of your post is topical!

There are 3 parts in an EIC that can be signed individually on the certificate. Design, construction and testing. With schemes like NICEIC a 4th signature is required from the Qualified Supervisor of the scheme. Not sure about NAPIT, ECA etc.

Can't you get round it that way?

Thanks for your reply
I have managed to find three different EIC's which I have download and none of them have the facility for signing off the three parts individually
Maybe I am looking in the wrong place ... any useful links appreciated

 

[malbec4]

Have a look at this link:

https://electrical.theiet.org/media/2818/bs7671-eic.pdf

On page 2 there are 3 signatures required. For design, construction and testing.

However, unless it's signed by a person who is recognised by the competent persons register you may have a problem with your LABC. Others may know better than me because I don't have this problem.

 

[Coloumb]

Thanks your reply
Yes the first electrician is certified and registered and he has just done the 1st Electrics
I was lead to believe that there is the one EIC certificate which covers all the work done - are you saying that the 1st electrician could simply sign off on 1st electrics independently of any separate 2nd electrics by a different electrician ?
Also, I am not aware of a multi signature EIC ... where would I find this ?
Thanks

Alex

Thanks for your reply
I have managed to find three different EIC's which I have download and none of them have the facility for signing off the three parts individually
Maybe I am looking in the wrong place ... any useful links appreciated

If he is registered I would call who ever he is with a sort it out with them. Being part of a scheme then the work he has done should come with some sort of warranty so they can't just wash their hands of it. I would do that before you do anything else, explain the situation and see what they say.

 

[MGW]

If he is registered I would call who ever he is with a sort it out with them. Being part of a scheme then the work he has done should come with some sort of warranty so they can't just wash their hands of it. I would do that before you do anything else, explain the situation and see what they say.

This is the way to go, I also had some work done, and not completed by the electrician doing the work, and also the LABC were involved so it had to be done correct. And the LABC told me in no uncertain terms, if the person doing the work has any logo's or paperwork which says he is a scheme member, then he needs to sort out paperwork, and register the work with the LABC through his scheme.

However, if he does not display any logo's and claim he is a scheme member, then down to the homeowner to notify the work. And we had not a clue about the electrician who had done the work, as had been employed by the builder, who had run off into the Welsh hill with the LABC chasing after him, unfortunately for us, they found him first, and caused him to cease trading, so I submitted an EIC which was clearly marked as to what work I had done, and a completion certificate arrived in the post.

But you don't need to do this, the scheme providers need to sort it out for you.

 

[AlexPBryn]

Have a look at this link:

https://electrical.theiet.org/media/2818/bs7671-eic.pdf

On page 2 there are 3 signatures required. For design, construction and testing.

However, unless it's signed by a person who is recognised by the competent persons register you may have a problem with your LABC. Others may know better than me because I don't have this problem.

Thanks for this pdf ... is this a standard, EIC form for England and Wales ?
and if so, would it be universally used by electricians regardless of which organisation they are affiliated with such as NAPIT ?

And apologies, I am very new to all this so and not familiar with all the jargon ...
How would I know if an electrician is "recognised by the competent persons register" ?

 

[AlexPBryn]

If he is registered I would call who ever he is with a sort it out with them. Being part of a scheme then the work he has done should come with some sort of warranty so they can't just wash their hands of it. I would do that before you do anything else, explain the situation and see what they say.

The 2nd electrician has spoken directly to the 1st electrician and after some delay, he has agreed to sign off on the 1st electrics once the 2nd electrician has completed the 2nd electrics
The latter ran this by NAPIT who said, "we would not advise going down that route because as you have pointed out there is no facility on a EIC to record different contractors for 1st and 2nd fix

and sorry to be a bit ignorant on details ... being part of a scheme - do you mean being part of an organisation such as NAPIT ?

 

[MGW]

I am currently doing a renovation project and last year employed a certified electrician to do the electrics.

How would I know if an electrician is "recognised by the competent persons register" ?

I had assumed when you said certified, you meant scheme member? Back in around 2004 Part P was added to the building regulations, it was realised the electricity at work act did not cover many domestics, so this was designed to plug the gap.

There is now a list of work, which varies country to country and principality (Wales is not a country, it seems) which say what work needs notifying to the LABC, not all work needs notifying, but all work will have some paperwork, be it a minor works or an installation certificate where the person doing the works admits he has done that work, for the electrician it is important, as it lists what he has done, so if there is latter a fault on work not listed, he can say sorry, I did not do this. But it also shows what he has done. If the electrician is not a scheme member, then the owner would need to submit this paperwork to the LABC for any work done on the list. And the LABC should be told before the work is started. And the LABC if satisfied will issue a completion certificate.

If, however, the electrician is a scheme member, the scheme issues a compliance certificate it trusts the electrician to do a good job, backed up by spot checks to see he is doing as he should.

We had four levels of people, ordinary, instructed, skilled and competent, unfortunately the schemes called their system the competent persons scheme, which caused confusion, so the IET dropped the level competent to avoid confusion, but it is still used. I have not become incompetent because the IET dropped the class. In the main, competent means the person can do the inspection and testing required to make the installation safe for others to use. They have passes their C&G 2391 exams.

If the electrician has passed his 2391, then likely the LABC will accept his installation certificate, but you would still have a fine for not applying before the work was started. If they do not accept his qualifications, then they will assign at your expense someone to inspect and test the work done. You may be given a list to select from, but although the person is doing an EICR, he is instructed by the LABC not you.

So now we don't have a clue what to advise, as we thought both electricians were scheme members, now there seems some question about that.

 

[malbec4]

The competent register is:

https://electricalcompetentperson.co.uk/

Could you not get the 1st sparky to sign the design and the construct part of the certificate. Then get the 2nd sparky to sign the inspection/test part.

Either way the electricians, or at least one of them, should belong to the competent register to avoid hassle from LABC. If they are with a scheme (NAPIT, NICEIC, ECA etc) they will already have the certificates/forms that are needed.

 

[Coloumb]

The multi-signatory IEC cert allows three separate parties to notify the work. However, if your 1st spark isn't registered or is registered with a different organisation to your current one then I don't see it's going to help as one can't certify the others work. The only way it might work would be if both sparks were registered with the same organisation. I think this is what NAPIT are trying to tell you. Like I say, you need to speak to who ever the first spark is registered with - it's their problem to sort out for you. If he can issue certification for his 1st fix then that should be all you need to complete the work, but like I say you need to get that confirmed.

 

[AlexPBryn]

I had assumed when you said certified, you meant scheme member? Back in around 2004 Part P was added to the building regulations, it was realised the electricity at work act did not cover many domestics, so this was designed to plug the gap.

There is now a list of work, which varies country to country and principality (Wales is not a country, it seems) which say what work needs notifying to the LABC, not all work needs notifying, but all work will have some paperwork, be it a minor works or an installation certificate where the person doing the works admits he has done that work, for the electrician it is important, as it lists what he has done, so if there is latter a fault on work not listed, he can say sorry, I did not do this. But it also shows what he has done. If the electrician is not a scheme member, then the owner would need to submit this paperwork to the LABC for any work done on the list. And the LABC should be told before the work is started. And the LABC if satisfied will issue a completion certificate.

If, however, the electrician is a scheme member, the scheme issues a compliance certificate it trusts the electrician to do a good job, backed up by spot checks to see he is doing as he should.

We had four levels of people, ordinary, instructed, skilled and competent, unfortunately the schemes called their system the competent persons scheme, which caused confusion, so the IET dropped the level competent to avoid confusion, but it is still used. I have not become incompetent because the IET dropped the class. In the main, competent means the person can do the inspection and testing required to make the installation safe for others to use. They have passes their C&G 2391 exams.

If the electrician has passed his 2391, then likely the LABC will accept his installation certificate, but you would still have a fine for not applying before the work was started. If they do not accept his qualifications, then they will assign at your expense someone to inspect and test the work done. You may be given a list to select from, but although the person is doing an EICR, he is instructed by the LABC not you.

So now we don't have a clue what to advise, as we thought both electricians were scheme members, now there seems some question about that.

Thanks again for your help ... this is all getting a bit complicated but I will try and clarify
In summary
- The 1st electrician did the 1st Fix but failed to reply to questions I had and after 5 months of repeated requests, I decided to seek out another electrician
- 2nd Electrician understandably did not want to proceed with 2nd Fix until 1st electrician signed off on 1st Fix
- He contacted 1st electrician who finally agreed to sign off on 1st fix at the end of the job
- 2nd electrician contact NAPIT who advised him not to go ahead with 2nd fix because an EIC form has no facility to record different contractors

Another member here suggest otherwise ... unless different organisations (Schemes) use different EIC forms ?

I have since discovered that both 1st and 2nd electricians are members of NAPIT which should in theory make it easier ?

 

[AlexPBryn]

The multi-signatory IEC cert allows three separate parties to notify the work. However, if your 1st spark isn't registered or is registered with a different organisation to your current one then I don't see it's going to help as one can't certify the others work. The only way it might work would be if both sparks were registered with the same organisation. I think this is what NAPIT are trying to tell you. Like I say, you need to speak to who ever the first spark is registered with - it's their problem to sort out for you. If he can issue certification for his 1st fix then that should be all you need to complete the work, but like I say you need to get that confirmed.

View attachment 104260

Is the multi signatory IEC a standard Certificate with all schemes/organisations ?

as mentioned in reply to another member here, I have discovered that both electricians are members of NAPIT

 

[Coloumb]

Is the multi signatory IEC a standard Certificate with all schemes/organisations ?

as mentioned in reply to another member here, I have discovered that both electricians are members of NAPIT

The multi-sig IEC is really aimed at large installations where you would have separate contractors or sub-contractors working on design, 1st fix, 2nd fix and testing. I don't think it's going to solve your problem in this case. As said, go back to NAPIT and tell them you had one spark do some work and you need what ever certification is necessary to show the second spark the work was done to 7671 so there should be no issue in getting the notification done, especially as they are both registered with NAPIT. It looks to me that either you or NAPIT are not really understanding the problem. It's really up to NAPIT to sort this for you.

Is there some sort of history with the first spark that is influencing this? Did you fall out with him and/or not pay for his work?

 

[Refuse to Bend]

Certification generally doesn't recognise different constructors sticking their finger in the pie. I have seen various formats of this, some can include addresses and company names. Nine times out of ten the only different company to be involved is the designer especially on large projects and this often includes an address and company name.
Even on a large site where different electrical contractors are involved unless each contractor has responsibility for the construction and testing and producing an EIC for their involvement then a single contractor will be in overall charge of Certification.
In your case unless electrician No 2 wishes to take responsibility for the construction of electrician No 1 as large contractors often do over sub contractors then it is tricky as most Certification only has one signatory for the construction and testing.
I understand No 2 not wishing to take responsibility from No 1 as the inspection and testing should verify the construction done by No 1 and this may not be possible.

 

[Bob Rathbone]

Fill in two certificates, one for first fix, one for completion, only fill in the parts that apply to each fix, ie the first fix certificate will not include any electrical testing or functional tests, only information that describes the fist fix state. The first fix electrician will be responsible for the design stage. Normally when multiple electricians are involved it is part of a large contract with an overseeing person back at the office who will sign on behalf of the constructors who will be employees or sub contractors of the company.

 

[AlexPBryn]

The multi-sig IEC is really aimed at large installations where you would have separate contractors or sub-contractors working on design, 1st fix, 2nd fix and testing. I don't think it's going to solve your problem in this case. As said, go back to NAPIT and tell them you had one spark do some work and you need what ever certification is necessary to show the second spark the work was done to 7671 so there should be no issue in getting the notification done, especially as they are both registered with NAPIT. It looks to me that either you or NAPIT are not really understanding the problem. It's really up to NAPIT to sort this for you.

Is there some sort of history with the first spark that is influencing this? Did you fall out with him and/or not pay for his work?

The 1st electrician did the 1st fix and I paid him for that work back in May last year
I then asked multiple questions such as - when he would be able to do the 2nd fix - what if anything I need to do before a 2nd fix amongst others.
I never heard back from him over about a 4 month period. I also heard from someone locally who had also used him in the recent past that the electrician was have issue with sub contractors
Not getting any replies to texts, e-mail and phone calls suggested to me that either he didn't want to do the rest of the work or perhaps his business was faltering
Either way, I made the decision in August to find another electrician
Around the middle of september, I received a one line text message asking me when he could come and do the 2nd electrics !
So yes, I guess you could say that I fell out with him

I will contact NAPIT and see if I can get any joy

 

[Refuse to Bend]

You can do two Certificates as @Bob Rathbone suggests to cover No 1s design and construction but this leaves you a bit stuck with the verification and testing in particular the verification because who verifies the construction of No 1 especially if much of it is concealed.

 

[MGW]

I am not a scheme member, and never have been, I was an industrial electrician, and we did have multi signature forms, but can't see why a scheme provider would issue multi signature forms, unless supporting the third part inspection and testing, in England this is now allowed, not in Wales, but most the scheme providers did not like the idea, so have not offered it to members.

All one can hope is NAPIT can help, there must be a system for when an electrician dies, so there should be a way forward.