Electric Cars

AmateurBodger said:
Charging costs 9p per kWh at home off peak.
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What's your daytime rate?

The cost 'savings' are meaningless to anyone wanting to buy their own car and keep it long-term.

An ID4 costs up to £52k!

£5k for a Nissan Leaf with a tiny, knackered battery that might do 50 miles? No thanks.
 
arrow said:
we need to start mining again and start up coal fired power stations. Wind turbines are an absolute eyesore on the landscape, which do not work a lot of the time. They are also costing us a fortune paying out massive sums when they are not working, it is disgusting.
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No thanks. I'd like my kids to grow up and have a world left to live in. Also most of that is nonsense. Wind turbines pay back their cost in 1-6 years.
 
I have an absolutely no problem with EVs as a choice. If it suits you, great.

The problem to me is we are being forced to adopt technology that will never be viable on the premise that it will 'save the planet!'

Cutting the use of fossil fuels is obviously a good thing but whatever the source of powering a vehicle, it has a detrimental impact on the environment. Lithium mining is certainly not 'green'.

When just one large cruise ship emits the equivalent pollution to millions of cars in the name of entertainment, we seem to be barking up the wrong tree.
 
AnotherTopJob said:
I have an absolutely no problem with EVs as a choice. If it suits you, great.

The problem to me is we are being forced to adopt technology that will never be viable on the premise that it will 'save the planet!'

Cutting the use of fossil fuels is obviously a good thing but whatever the source of powering a vehicle, it has a detrimental impact on the environment. Lithium mining is certainly not 'green'.

When just one large cruise ship emits the equivalent pollution to millions of cars in the name of entertainment, we seem to be barking up the wrong tree.
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That's exactly my point, I'm all for a greener planet but that also means using what fossil fuels we have responsibly and not driving around in a 4 litre pickup because it makes you feel good and travelling our oceans on cruise ships because you can't think of anything better to do with your money.

We need to use less and waste nothing. Electric cars are great for air quality as it pains me to see parents sitting outside the school gates with their range Rovers running subjecting everyones children to pollution.
 
AmateurBodger said:
In the beginning there were far more cars than petrol stations, yet somehow we managed to deal with it. As you say most EV owners will charge at home. There are currently studies into converting lamp posts for example. Electricity is everywhere already - it just needs sockets adding.
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Street lights have cabling etc to supply about 500W per streetlamp post. That is about 1/100th of what is required for a 50kW charger.
Electricity is indeed everywhere already, but not with the infrastructure necessary. It is not just that sockets need to be added.
The typical domestic supply is 23kW, the faster home charger is 22kW, and is necessary to charge a car during the 5 or 6 hours of cheaper night-time electricity. That's ok, unless you have an immersion, or a heat pump, or power-shower, or dishwasher, washing machine, cooker, toaster, kettle, tv, or anything else that might also use electricity.
That 23kW per house is anticipated as a short term maximum peak load, and usually houses are approximately 6kW. The supply network is not capable of supplying a house drawing sustained maximum load for long periods. What happens when it is half the houses in the street, and half the streets in the town?
 
Look at it another way, most houses have a 60amp limit via a fuse although some may have 100amp. Even this has diversity taken into consideration as the cabling under the pavement will not cope if every house draws 60amps simultaneously . Even If every house started drawing around 45 amps charging their car for up to 7/8 hours I doubt if the ageing infrastructure can cope.
 
230v x 100amps = 23kW.
230v x 60 amps is 13.8kW, so my previous post was over-optimistic!
a 22kW charger is going to draw 95amps.....
 
But you don't need 22kw. Lamp-post charging is overnight charging. Or even 4 hourly charging. I have a home charger rated up to 11kw but I usually get 7 to 8kw max. In 4 hours that fills me up half a tank. Two nights in a row and I am full.

Rosso said:
Electricity is indeed everywhere already, but not with the infrastructure necessary. It is not just that sockets need to be added.
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Tell it to these guys:
https://ubitricity.com/en/charging-solutions/
Their lamppost conversions only give 5.5kwh but overnight that's plenty.

Or how about these guys (900 installed so far):-
https://unboxed.co/our-work/chargy/
Their points go up to 7.36kwh.

In Brighton they are also ahead of the game with 200 lamppost chargers:
https://electricbrighton.com/faqs/how-do-you-use-brightons-lamp-post-ev-chargers

Here's what National Grid have to say.
https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/electric-vehicles-myths-misconceptions

The most demand for electricity in recent years in the UK was for 62GW in 2002. Since then, the nation’s peak demand has fallen by roughly 16% due to improvements in energy efficiency.
Even if we all switched to EVs overnight, we believe demand would only increase by around 10%. So we’d still be using less power as a nation than we did in 2002 and this is well within the range of manageable load fluctuation.

Statistically in the UK, the first car in a family does around 37 miles a day on average and any second car covers around 11 miles daily. In the US, the majority of households (roughly 85%) travel under 100 miles on a typical day.

In the UK, National Grid has proposed the optimum locations for adequate grid capacity to enable others to provide ultra-fast chargers, ensuring that nobody on the strategic road network (motorways and principle dual carriageways) is further than 50 driven miles from ultra-rapid charging. This will give drivers consistency, continuity and therefore confidence that their main – or only – car can be electric.
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So National Grid are happy. And they provide the Electricity.
 
dubsie said:
I was considering an electric van until a friend told me he was getting less than 100 miles from his.
What happens if you want to tow a caravan, will a Tesla manage that? Can you imagine the inconvenience of having to unhitch to charge your car every 150 miles. The Tesla X has a range of about 350 miles, but that's it's max. Reality is I wouldn't make Devon towing.
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Absolutely. A pile of valid points. EVs are a bit of a pain when it comes to towing due to the need to unhitch to charge, and as you say, the range for vans isn't that great. That said - how far do you usually drive with your van?
I agree with you that the Tesla has a range of 350 miles on paper. In real life you can beat that if you are city driving in warm weather, but it will drop to 195to 250 miles on the motorway depending on the weather.
The actual towing isn't a problem. The BMW iX can tow 2500kg for example, the Tesla X 2268kg.

AUtocar found that in tests with an Enyak range dropped by 50% when towing a caravan, but still allowed for 150 miles. Tests with a Tesla Y and Camp 365 trailer showed a reduction of around 30% driving at 55mph. So if you do a lot of trowing or carry a lot of heavy stuff and need a van, range isn't so great yet. An e-sprinter will only to 82-95 miles currently but the 2024 e-sprinter is coming with up to 120kwh battery giving a range of 307 miles in testing.
 
Electric cars are becoming very expensive to run, with the ever rising cost of electricity at home and the extraordinarily high cost at public charging points it no longer seems worth the inconvenience of having to wait for the car to charge. As more than 60% of our electricity is still generated from fossil sources by in efficient outdated gas turbines and other thermal sources, the green argument also seems compromised. New petrol or diesel cars offer a much better return on financial cost and for the environment. The green lobby or the electricity generators, both have an axe to grind, this distorts their data set that is published.
 
AmateurBodger said:
AUtocar found that in tests with an Enyak range dropped by 50% when towing a caravan, but still allowed for 150 miles.
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It's interesting you mention the Enyaq.
CarWow did some real-world tests and it wasn't favourable, only managing 100 miles with a caravan!

Claimed range 318 miles - actual range at 60mph, no electrics on, 231 miles.
At 70mph, 200 miles. With a Ski Rack, 161 miles. Roof box, 177 miles. Bike 169 miles. With all electrics on, 146 miles.
Towing a caravan at 60mph, 100 miles.

 
Bob Rathbone said:
Electric cars are becoming very expensive to run, with the ever rising cost of electricity at home and the extraordinarily high cost at public charging points it no longer seems worth the inconvenience of having to wait for the car to charge.
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I'll have to disagree. My ID4 s way cheaper to run than my old Renault Scenic. Fuel is much cheaper even with the increased costs. You very seldom need to use public charging points. Maintenance is almost zero. My Scenic is dying. The cooling system is leaking but it would require taking the engine out to fix it, which in turn has broken the air conditioning / heating due to the gunk used to fix the leak. The accelerator switch is now sticking causing the engine to overheat. It needs oil changes, the brakes wear out every couple of years and it makes horrible fumes.

The ID4 hardly uses the brakes. It has no clutch, no engine, no coolant system to leak. Other than a periodic battery check, there is very little to break down and almost nothing to regularly service.

Bob Rathbone said:
New petrol or diesel cars offer a much better return on financial cost and for the environment.
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You mean up until you can't buy them any more and the petrol gets so expensive you can't afford to run them? Shell and BP are already installing EV chargers instead of more pumps when they redo garages.
 
AmateurBodger said:
You mean up until you can't buy them any more and the petrol gets so expensive you can't afford to run them? Shell and BP are already installing EV chargers instead of more pumps when they redo garages.
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If fuel becomes unaffordable, then so will your weekly shop. As you know, just about everything in-store has been transported by a Diesel vehicle. It's the only viable fuel for virtually all commercial vehicles, and will be for many more years.
And can you imagine the cost to produce food if farmers are forced to invest in electric tractors?
 
quasar9 said:
Look at it another way, most houses have a 60amp limit via a fuse although some may have 100amp. Even this has diversity taken into consideration as the cabling under the pavement will not cope if every house draws 60amps simultaneously . Even If every house started drawing around 45 amps charging their car for up to 7/8 hours I doubt if the ageing infrastructure can cope.
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I don’t know about other Cities but around here a LOT of houses have a looped mains supply, so they might have a 60A fuse but the supply is very limited for those houses.

I think DNOs don’t permit car chargers on looped supplies?

Some of the looped supplies round here seem to do up to 4 houses and it is not just terraced houses you see overhead cables between semis and detached houses.

So those houses may have parking but can’t have car chargers without major rework/investment from the DNO.
 
Rosso said:
230v x 100amps = 23kW.
230v x 60 amps is 13.8kW, so my previous post was over-optimistic!
a 22kW charger is going to draw 95amps.....
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22kw is for a 3phase EVSE, no single phase EVSE runs at that level. The single phase tops out at 7kw (~30A)
 
Bob Rathbone said:
Electric cars are becoming very expensive to run, with the ever rising cost of electricity at home and the extraordinarily high cost at public charging points it no longer seems worth the inconvenience of having to wait for the car to charge. As more than 60% of our electricity is still generated from fossil sources by in efficient outdated gas turbines and other thermal sources, the green argument also seems compromised. New petrol or diesel cars offer a much better return on financial cost and for the environment. The green lobby or the electricity generators, both have an axe to grind, this distorts their data set that is published.
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My Tesla is currently giving 300w/M my fixed rate is 26.5p/kwh, so the car is costing ~8p/M. On the other hand my 4 series mild hybrid diesel gave me 50mpg average, with todays RAC diesel price of 172.85/L (£7.85/G) that is ~16p/M. At the point my fixed rate finishes I'll switch to a night tariff which are about 10p/kwh meaning ~3.5p/M in the winter and ~2.5p/M in summer.
Given I do about 12,000 miles a year diesel would be £1920 and electric ~ £360 if I charge at home, there is clearly a lot of scope to pick up any on route charging needed and still be very happy.
 
Ad_g said:
I think DNOs don’t permit car chargers on looped supplies?
So those houses may have parking but can’t have car chargers without major rework/investment from the DNO.
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They do. Most chargers have automatic load balancing. The power provider may want the house unlooped in the longer term.
 
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