Discussion in 'Electricians' Talk' started by Tasos, Jun 10, 2019 at 4:35 PM.
1 plug each
Isn't some one forgetting something = what is the wattage of the units that are pugged in. Neither will draw 13amps.
I'm not suggesting its wrong because of maths or another technical reason, the only reason I'm saying its dangerous is experience, I've seen this happen a good few times over the years. If no one want to listen to me or if someone wants to use maths to prove its fine or scrub it from the report because it shouldn't be there that's absolutely fine, that's their lookout not mine.
Peter I'm sure you have but what's actually caused the problem? If they are fused then neither sox can draw more than 13a, and that's diversified.
Yes thats my electricians and my argument
Because a twin socket still only has one connection point and one track inside it connecting the various terminals, the terminal turret is still riveted to the track in one point. In fact the brass inside a twin socket is probably pretty much the same size and thickness as a single socket so everything gets warmer when twice the load is added to the socket, eventually you get bad connections and the whole lot fails.
This is what a quick google throws up, a few years old and taken from another forum supposedly quoting MK
All MK socket-outlets are manufactured to comply with BS1363 part 2: 1995 and are rated at 13A per unit. Double socket-outlets have been manufactured and tested to exceed this rating by margin that allows electrical safety and reduces the risk of heat and mechanical damage to components due to overloading. It should be noted that BS1363 part 2: 1995 does not allow double sockets to operate at twice the permissible maximum loading and it should be remembered that double socket-outlets are not manufactured to be able to withstand a 26A load for sustained periods of time.
Research by ourselves and third party organisations has shown that all MK double sockets can safely withstand a continuous load of 19.5A for an indefinite period. Increasing the load slightly will begin to cause heat and mechanical stresses on the components in a relatively short period. Testing showed that a load of 22.3A was sufficient to cause heat stress that would cause a browning of the faceplates and sufficient heat to cause insulation damage to cable cores. A load of 24A for 43 hours was sufficient to cause significant heat damage to the material in which the socket-outlet was situated and within 75 hours sufficient to cause significant damage that would lead to the very real potential of fire.
MK recommend that users of their sockets consult professional design Engineers when designing installations to avoid the possibility of heat and mechanical stress to components and installations caused by overloading of MK socket-outlets.
Well then I would think a washer and dryer would be well within the tolerances.
I have a bit of a thing about 13amp sockets Peter. Don't get me wrong. They aren't really up to it. MK was about the only one that was. Fortunately really in some ways as things that take a full 13amps are rare until recent changes on space heaters from china. Washing is now done at low temperature with min water so doesn't need much heating. Driers pass but again I doubt if it is that much,
Interestingly MK's wiring reference states 13 amp sockets and only mentions a combined load for a type fitted with a filter - that one has combined max load of 13 amps. That will be down to the filter.
Their 3 gang is also different as intended for spurs probably when these had to fused. It has a fuse fitted. Afraid a spur with one of those on is what I usually suggest to people who have an espresso machine and also want to run a grinder and no sockets where they want them. Well at least it's safe and many people will do that sort of thing themselves.
Maybe but a dryer will constantly be using close to 13A if its a 3kW one for a good hour or so and a washer as well as going round and round for about 2 hrs also has an electric heater element to heat the water (very few are actually connected to the hot water supply), thats probably more than 2kW, so use them together and you risk causing damage to the socket over time until it eventually goes west.
Nice one Colon
We are all talking with electrical exsperience as we now choose good electrical goods when the price permits but the business is a bit cut throat so cheap fittings are used to compete. The point is the ordinary person would not have clue what we are on about they just plug items in not sure how to stop this as a socket is a socket and the plug for a 3 kW drier fits it not sure why a c2 is the code as once socket not used this way it has no code . So it goes from safe to dangerous non satisfactory by the owner not the the installer which can not be controlled c3 as an advice would be approprite
If double sockets are manufactured, then there is no reason to question using both plug points in the socket to plug in a couple of appliances. I have no idea why a NAPIT registered electrician would say that you can't plug two appliances in to a double socket. You can, it is done and there is nothing in the Regs to say you can't. This trade is filled with electricians who invent their own rules and Regulations.
It's beyond believe, but here is the real deal
Curious - has anyone looked at the BS that covers 13amp sockets. What is stated in that rules and sockets must meet it.
Mentioned as I doubt if building regs actually cover it so in that case who ever said it can't be done must look at what it states in there.
As I mentioned MK do not rule it out in their data but do mention a BS number. On one socket they do derate the total draw as there is a filter in it. Having done that I would suspect they would mention it on all if any need and they do meet what ever the BS states. Anyone that makes them must.
In joke in some areas BS stands for bull stuff but another word replaces stuff.
John what we have to appreciate is that sockets are sockets. They are used by everyone, and if a socket is available it will get stuff plugged in to it. People who use them are not technical nor generally appreciate the intricacies of power, current, fuses etc etc. Why should they be? It is pointless adopting this approach because the fact is if a double socket is fitted it can, and does, have two appliances plugged in. That's the bottom line. Double sockets in their millions are used like that all over the UK and beyond. Sockets are sockets to people who use them every day. If manufacturers were at all concerned about what might get plugged in then they would provide instructions. They don't because it is not a problem. Its imagined what the problem might be and boy do people have some imagination!!! Its the usual over zealous 'make your own rules' type of event by a silly electrician who has caused the upset. Its not the first time and it wont be the last. I get really fed up of seeing all this nonsense over nothing.
This might explain my experience via work with some 13amp sockets - plugs as well.
May 2012: BS 1363-2:1995 +A4:2012 (Title unchanged) published. This amended standard adds a requirement that it shall not be possible to operate a shutter by the insertion of a two-pin Europlug, and introduced new temperature rise tests amongst others. BS 1363-2:1995 remained current until 31 May 2015.
All more recent updates are per this one
August 2016: BS 1363-5:2016 (Title unchanged) published. Minor changes only. BS 1363-5:2008 will remain current until 31 August 2019.
This sounds like another one to me - incorrect. The other one is all plastic consumer units and electricians telling them they must upgrade to metal which is some cases is actually part metal. It isn't true.
Where people probably need to be careful is fitting items that don't show the relevant BS number what ever it is even cable. That can happen on plugs and I suspect the rest of items that are used.
I think your reading too much into it. A socket is a socket. Maybe Peter has seen a few that have been badly wired or are moody imports but a washer and dryer isn't going to be a problem.
As a manufacturer of a 2 gang socket, if you had the slightest inkling or test result that plugging in two domestic appliances could cause a fire neither they or their insurers would allow the product anywhere near the market. With the press today saying that a court case has been raised in the US against the material suppliers connected with grenfell, including whirlpool who supplied the freezer, you just wouldn't put a known risk on the market. Therefore the manufacturers must be satisfied there is no risk.
As others have said there are millions of double sockets in kitchens and utilities with 2 appliances plugged in. However, having said that good design does suggest that individual single sockets is preferable and I will ask my sparks to do this when he eventually wires my utility.
Actually manufacturers have to show that they did enough to show that there was no risk. Traceability, paper trials and test reports etc. Then claims may come down to negligence - something they should have done and wasn't. Sounds to me that sockets are like some other things - BS what ever it is has to be met and that looks like it includes testing in this case so if it doesn't work out BS would be blamed. Spec's like this generally involve the manufacturers when they are defined as that is where the expertise is. They level the playing field and often result in things not being as good as the could be but all sources are the same as far as the spec is concerned. Essentially it should rule out bad examples being produced and sold.
The US grenfell aspects? One of the materials can't be used on high rise in the US. So should who ever selected it have noticed that ? Should the importers be aware of that fact and point it out? Plastic rather than metal backs on fridges and freezers are currently the norm and are known to have caused problems. Not that many but they have. Response about that - ask the manufacturers to stop doing it / find a solution not stop selling or recall them. That sort of thing does crop up at times. It did with asbestos and that was killing people eventually that worked with it.
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