First time!

Discussion in 'Just Talk' started by rogerk101, Oct 25, 2021.

  1. rogerk101

    rogerk101 Screwfix Select

    First time in history that the ineffectiveness of a medicine is being blamed on those who haven't taken it! o_O
    BiancoTheGiraffe and CGN like this.
  2. just pumps

    just pumps Screwfix Select

    Er what?
  3. quasar9

    quasar9 Screwfix Select

    I think Roger is talking about anti vaccine lot ! I know people who have had Astra, Pfizer, Moderna and some others too. All effective with no one suffering any long term affects, worse being flu like symptoms lasting a few days.
  4. Jord86

    Jord86 Screwfix Select

    "Like a virgin, touched for the very first tiiime."
  5. kitfit1

    kitfit1 Screwfix Select

    But you are deliberately missing the point, are you not ? five million people have chosen not to have the vaccine, the rest of us have had it for our own benefit and also to stop the NHS from being overwhelmed.
    Nearly all the 100,000 a day new infections are people that are not vaccinated. At some point a very large amount of them (maybe you as well) will end up in hospital on a ventilator and could end up dead. To be honest, after all this time most of us know that unless you are vaccinated you are very likely to end up in hospital.
    We are heading into winter and Covid will attack all of us vaccinated or not. To be honest i don't care if all the five million unvaccinated die, they chose not to be vaccinated. What i do care about is the stupidity of there decision, because it could well cause the total collapse of the NHS :mad:
    stevie22, I-Man and Rulland like this.
  6. koolpc

    koolpc Screwfix Select

    All media hype.
    rogerk101 likes this.
  7. Bob Rathbone

    Bob Rathbone Screwfix Select

    Time for another category in 'The Darwin Awards'.
  8. rogerk101

    rogerk101 Screwfix Select

    For decades, large numbers of people have been 'overwhelming the NHS' by voluntarily continuing smoking, drinking, overdosing, overeating, undertaking dangerous activities, etc. ... despite being fully aware of the potential consequences of their decisions ... yet we don't condone over-the-top reactions like locking down society and turning life on its head until they stop those things.
    CGN likes this.
  9. quasar9

    quasar9 Screwfix Select

    Some feel entitled to services offered by NHS rather than a partnership to keep one healthy. It’s free to use with no contribution needed even if you can afford it. The issue stems from the way creation of NHS (and social support in general) was rushed after WW2 with little thought to it’s long term funding. It was funded from tax revenues, when the average life expectancy was around 65, so the average retiree , a non tax payer, survived just 5 years beyond retirement. It’s now around 87, which means a retiree survives for 20 years beyond retirement at 67.

    People of working age do not pay attention to keeping healthy (drinking /smoking / etc) knowing whatever happens NHS will take care of them, but have often developed serious long term conditions before they retire.

    Had it been based on a direct contributory system, which is what the government is trying to do with ringfenced NI receipts, thing might have been different.

    that said, we should all be proud of NHS and very thankful to the dedicated people who run it.
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2021
  10. Muzungu

    Muzungu Screwfix Select

    This is one of those memes which is doing the rounds on social media which is completely nonsensical though appears "clever" to those who are unable to think things through for themselves.

    Firstly the vaccine is not "ineffective" as any number of trials have now shown.

    It therefore follows that the second part of the statement is logically incoherent. The people who have not taken the virus now make up the majority of those being hospitalised and are a walking reservoir for the virus to spread, so I have no problem in "blaming" them for the fact the virus is lingering longer than it would otherwise.

    It continues to surprise me, although it shouldn't by now, that supposedly sentient human beings who are apparently able to get out of bed and get dressed every day without assistance prefer to rely on the drivel scrawled all over social media rather than every single national and international, medical and scientific body on the planet.

    "Open your eyes sheeple, it's the lizard people who dun it!"
    I-Man likes this.
  11. quasar9

    quasar9 Screwfix Select

    From the evidence being given to House of Commons committee, by a whistleblower, the Facebook AI algorithm chooses and spreads messages which are false news, hate based etc over more “normal” views and news. Guess this type of salacious “gossip” is nothing new , our red top rags have dined off this for nearly a century, only now digital platform makes it instantaneous and reaches billions at zero cost to end user
  12. sparko69

    sparko69 Screwfix Select

    Drug addicts
    Obese people
    All have been overwhelming the free service for years but let's ignore them and target anyone refusing to obey
    Joe the Plumber and rogerk101 like this.
  13. sparko69

    sparko69 Screwfix Select

    Genuine question, how would anyone know if there are going to be any long term effects if they only had the jab weeks ago?
  14. Bob256

    Bob256 Member

    even from highly educated academics from highly respected academic establishments

    Yes, like that Professor Suneptra Gupta from Oxford University. Sounds impressive doesn't it? Except that she was claiming in June 2020 that we had already reached herd immunity.

    There have always been contrarians and outliers in science. There is the odd academic that the likes of the GWPF will wheel out to argue that climate change isn't happening, and the tobacco companies had their tame scientists.
  15. Muzungu

    Muzungu Screwfix Select

    I did think that @rogerk101 was being satirical with his initial post but unfortunately that appears not to be the case.

    The multiple logical fallacies in his last post follow the well worn path of all the anti vaccine crowd. Lets look at one of them as he does follow the the "gish gallop" method of argument.

    "don't stop the long term trials in their tracks (lest they show that there may be long term adverse effects)"

    Millions of people have had the vaccine and there is a reporting system in place that can be accessed by anyone to report any suspected side effects. This is being analysed continuously. Which long term trials have been stopped because "they" don't want possible side effects to be know? Who are "they".

    This is complete nonsense and shows the, frankly, childish and binary worldview that is so common in those given to conspiracy theories.

    I could go through each one of his so called "points", but I have neither the time nor the inclination; the logical absurdities should be evident. You could do well to start with a bit of research on "proving the negative" along with "confirmation bias" as it would appear, if his posts are truly reflective of what he thinks and he is not trolling, he is unaware of either of these concepts. He has provided a masterclass in the demonstration of just about every debating fallacy.

    I admit I may be guilty of the "ad hominem" fallacy myself; in this case I am making a well deserved exception.
  16. quasar9

    quasar9 Screwfix Select

    Science is built on empirical evidence and more evidence from as wide a source means greater certainty. Even when we think we are certain there can be an alternate way of looking at it. Take gravity for example, Newton formulated the three laws from careful observations and proposals from many before him (hence his own acknowledgment “ I was standing on the shoulders of giants) and these formulas worked for many years and still do for most purposes, until Einstein reformulated gravity as space time distortions.

    for jabs, data is coming in all the time and now approaching billions being vaccinated. This big data may indicate issues with certain groups of people with some combination of medical conditions. However at this stage, this will be very fine tuning of efficacy and side affects as compared to the phase 1 to 3 trials. At this time, It’s very unlikely that any of the COVID vaccines are dangerous although efficacy of some Chinese products are proving to be less than that suggested by early data.

    Thalidomide is often quoted as the classic case when testing failed to reveal very nasty side affects. One of the main issue was that it impacted the foetus in pregnancy and medical trails will not generally accept people who are pregnant among other conditions. Just to conclude this, it’s been found that the main molecule in Thalidomide, has chirality , ie it comes in left and right handed versions and only one version is dangerous.the manufacturing process used produced a mix of these versions. Today we could separate these or alter the manufacturing process.
  17. Joe the Plumber

    Joe the Plumber Screwfix Select

    I recently worked for an intensive care nurse who has been at work though all three lockdowns. She said last November's was the worst. I asked her about the idea
    that if you're reasonably fit, don't have any existing serious health conditions and aren't fat, Covid is not and never has been a serious
    threat to you. She agreed with that. Her husband hasn't been vaccinated incidentally.

    She said that in some of the cases where apparently fit and healthy people have been badly affected by it, it's turned out they did have serious
    health issues they weren't aware of.

    She told me the worst cases (70%) in our area have been in groups where large numbers of different generations all live under one roof. Unfortunately, a lot of them are doctors
    who either brought the virus home from the hospital and spread it round, or who brought it to the hospital from home and did likewise. This is not being
    reported because it might be considered offensive by some people.

    She also told me the ICUs have now got to grips with Covid, most people are either vaccinated or have had it and got their natural immunity, and it's time to
    get on with our lives. Remember, cases aren't hospitalisations. They're people who for some strange reason have tested themselves while feeling fine,
    but discovered they've got it.

    All the above isn't my opinion, it's straight from an ICU nurse, right on the Covid front line. I've been working for her on and off for about 15 years, so I trust her.

    As someone else said the other day: 'How long will the pandemic carry on? Don't ask me, I'm a doctor, not a politician'....
    CGN likes this.
  18. CGN

    CGN Screwfix Select

    obviously you’re joking o_O
  19. quasar9

    quasar9 Screwfix Select

    The battle between virus and all living things on earth has been ongoing for millions of years and will continue for ever. Viruses adapt, after all it’s an imperative to their own survival and continuation. Therefore pandemics have occurred before and the targeted organism fought back by building up natural immunity.

    Occasionally these viruses adapted sufficiently to move from an animal host to humans. As majority of humans do not interact with animals on a daily basis, these tended to be self limiting and remain within isolated communities

    what’s worrying is that some countries seem to have programs to seek and research new viruses, some simply to study while others may have a more sinister motive.

    almost all dangerous recent viruses seem to be originating in animals and escaped while being studied in a lab. To name a few, HIV, Ebola/Margburg, SARS and COVID.

    perhaps time for international moratorium on collection and study of viruses, much like nuclear weapon or missile technology development..
  20. BiancoTheGiraffe

    BiancoTheGiraffe Screwfix Select

    That is so far from the truth it is laughable...

    Maybe go take a look at the ONS data before you come on here spouting such utter rubbish.

    By the way, I'm fairly neutral on the vaccine. It's a sensible choice for some, it's not necessary for many (and I'm completely against forcing it on people)
    Joe the Plumber and CGN like this.

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