Fitting a kitchen - help

Discussion in 'Other Trades Talk' started by Sean Hodges, Aug 4, 2004.

  1. Tangoman

    Tangoman Well-Known Member

    Leave room under the worktop for manoevering the dishwasher in and out.

    For 90 degree angle - get a piece of sheet timber with a 90 degree corner and hold it against the walls.

    Biscuits keep the surfaces level nothing to do with joint strength - it's up to you - it's a 5 minute job to add them in, 4 minutes with the router and 1 minute to glue them up and stick them in, so if they try to charge you a lot extra you'll know you're being ripped off!

    Don't know about the rubbery stuff - wouldn't bother myself.

    Tango
     
  2. devil's advocate

    devil's advocate New Member

    jasonb, saw your photo: eek! Think I'll lie down for a while...

    Sean, yep, trig is good, but also do it at 60,80,100 & 90,120,150 etc to make sure it's not just the immediate corner that's ok! One of the side panels from a base (or tall) unit can also be tried, flat, in the corner - they are a perfectly square guide.

    I don't think not having biscuits in the w'top joint is a problem - the few that I've seen have only had the connecting bolts (and glue)- no probs.

    The 'transparent rubbery stuff' is probably silicone rubber, and is <u>not</u> needed to fix down worktops (not just 'overkill' - just plain daft..!). Use it for bedding down the sintop - this MUST be water-tight.

    Also, seal the exposed chipboard in the sinktop (and any other )cut-out (you're fitting an inset type?). Varnish will do (although I used Thompson's Drive Seal last time as I had some in - what terrific stuff; goes on a treat, soaks right in, totally impervious to water, and, if cars can drive on it...).

    The trickiest join to get water-tight is the worktop corner. Remember, the tighter the join, the <u>more</u> it'll draw in water! (Capillary-action is a sod...). The only one I've done was a solid beech top, to I PVA'd it, bolted it tight, and then soaked the joint in oil (like the rest of the top).

    What do you professionals recommend for sealing this on a laminate top?
     
  3. jasonb

    jasonb New Member

    Get your worktop supplier to give you a tube of "coluorfil" in the correct shade to suit your worktop and some solvent. Put a bead of this along the top of the joint just before you close it up, cover the rest of the joint with WATERPROOF PVA glue. Clean up what oozes out with the solvent before it dries.

    I spread silicon onto the exposed edges of any cutouts to stop moisture.

    There is no need to bed laminate worktops in silicon The only time it is used is for holding granite worktops as they are a bit hard to screw down!!

    Jason
     
  4. Sean Hodges

    Sean Hodges New Member

    I'm still reading this avidly.
    My tiler/decorator is making good progress so I might be starting the installation this weekend.
    I'm going to start by putting up the run of wall units. Obviously no problems with worktop there, so all I need to do is make sure they are firmly attached to the wall and exactly level.
    Any recommendations for what kind of wall fixing to use?

    I plan to attach the corner-unit first, then carefully build out from that, trying to keep everything square and level.

    With the practice of the wall units (and some tall units on the opposite wall) under my belt I expect the base units and worktop to be a bit less daunting!

    Incidentally, the tall units will contain a double oven. I've installed the new power supply in the wall, and the oven has been delivered, all 55kg of it. Are there any trade secrets to fitting a large oven in a tall cabinet?
     
  5. screwfox

    screwfox New Member

    Before fitting your wall cupboards, fit a batten on the wall for them to rest on, then you won't have a problem trying to hold them up with one hand and fit them with the other.
    What's the wall surface you're fixing them to made from (i.e. solid brick, block, stud wall)?
    Is the power supply adequate for the owen?
    There is no trick to fitting an oven, just make sure there are two of you and slide it in, be careful when opening the door that it doesn't tip out if you haven't got a shelf above it!

    HTH
     
  6. Sean Hodges

    Sean Hodges New Member

    Batten for wall units sounds like a bloody good idea.

    Wall surface is plaster over ancient clinker blocks. Drills OK, except when you hit a hard lump, then the drill deviates off. I was planning to get some good long rawlplugs with matching screws (same as were used for previous units). However, IKEA units have only two screw attachments per unit (previous units used 6 screws), so I wondered if I needed something more beefy, like metal expansion bolts?

    Power supply for oven; it's a 5kW double-oven, and I used 6mm cable (chased into the wall, inside plastic conduit) to an oven socket on the wall. My electrical engineer father will hook it up to the consumer unit.
     
  7. devil's advocate

    devil's advocate New Member

    Sean, before you start fitting your wall units, you need to know what plinth height you are going to use for your BASE units, 'cos your TALL units will be at the <u>same</u> height. Then, your WALL units will be set to match the height of the TALL unit (flush at the top)! It is usual to fit base units first, then wall. I guess it's ok to do it the other way, but GET THE HEIGHT RIGHT!!!

    As for fixings, it depends on wall material. If it's solid (easiest), then mark out a perfectly level line to match the top surface of the units and, from this, mark the positions of the supplied metal hanging plates. Wall plugs and screws to fix.

    If it's a plasterboard wall, do NOT rely on plasterboard fixings - they will NOT be up to the job (imagine the weight!). If the wall units have a recess behind the back panel, then fit two long battons (eg: prep 2x1's) along the whole length of units, one 18mm below the top surface of the units and the other 18mm above the bottom surface. Screw these battons into every vertical frame that's behind the plasterboard.

    Then remove small sections from the sides of the wall units (ie: at the back, just below top panel & above bottom panel). The wall units should then fit OVER these battons, and you screw down through the top panel into the top batton, and up through the bottom panel into the bottom batton. (Gawd, does this make sense?).

    If your wall units <u>don't</u> have a recess, you can still fit the two battons, but the top one should be <u>above</u> the top panel and the bottom one immediatley <u>below</u> the bottom panel. Now screw from INSIDE the units into these battons. The battons should be hidden from eyeline view by the pelmet and cornice respectively.

    Think I need to lie down now...
     
  8. jasonb

    jasonb New Member

    I don't see any reason for using battens if the carcases come with adjustable hangers which they vertually all do these days (but it is Ikea!). Just screw the hanging plates to the wall, lift the carcase into place and let it drop downonto the hangers. Its then just a case of turning the adjusting screws until its level & plumb.

    Jason
     
  9. kangoman

    kangoman New Member

    use brown plugs and 2" inch to 2.5" no 10 screws plus once wall units are up use some small 3" angle brackets as extra fixings under units as these can be tiled over if slightly sunk into plaster.
    Ikea units are not very clever as others have stated regarding access to services void for wastepipes, cables ect.
    use unibond or similar to seal cutouts measure twice cut once a handy tip use methalated spirit to clean and smooth wet silicone on a clean lint free rag for a perfect finish on tops once all is in .mfi do a handy installation booklet if u buy one of their kitchens or can get hold of one not bad for the novice installer but just think things through its very much common sense but very satisfying when all is done good luck hope all is present and not damaged as most kitchens seem to be ...lol
     
  10. devil's advocate

    devil's advocate New Member

    Hi jasonb.

    I suggested using the battons <u>only</u> when fitting the wall units to a hollow pasterboarded wall. I don't know of any <u>reliable</u> way to fit the supplied metal plates <u>directly</u> onto plasterboard.

    I realise there are many impressive plasterboard fixings available these days but, ultimately, it'll be the plasterboard <u>itself</u> that carries the load; I personally wouldn't rely on that.

    When I fitted kitchens professionally some 20 years ago, we <u>always</u> used 2x1 battons on plasterboarded walls. But the units also always had a 20mm recess in the back which made the fixing invisible. Ikea units, I know, aren't that helpful.

    How do <u>you</u> recommend fitting onto plasterboard?
     
  11. freequote

    freequote New Member

    I have fitted many wall units to plasterboard and always use metal expanding fixings, never had one fall down (touching wood). I have been told and I don't know how true it is, a 1000 unit held on 2 plates with 4 good expanding fixings can support over 1 cwt.
     
  12. jasonb

    jasonb New Member

    Devil's A

    Did miss your bit about fitting to plasterboard as I was still thinking about Sean's clinker block walls.

    If fitting to plasterboard on stud I tend to use a continuous length of haning rail which allows the fixings to be placed anywhere along its length, but does require the upper sides to be trimmed in a similar way to your battens.

    http://www.woodfit.com/product_info.php?cPath=115_15&productsid=193&Name=Cabinet+Hanging+Rail+-+2.5mt.+-Steel

    If its dot & dab then use the same rail & hope to get some fixings through the dabs into the wall behind with some expanding anchors into the board as well.

    The external batten method realy works if you have space above the cabinets and a lighting pelmet to hide it underneath not always possible, the one I'm doing at the moment has a 2.1 ceiling height and no light pelmet, here's another one I did with a 2.05m ceiling & had to use 600mm high wall cabinets.

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/work/PICT0009.jpg

    Jason
     
  13. devil's advocate

    devil's advocate New Member

    I'm sure you're right, freequote, but I still wouldn't be completely happy with these fixings - if you put as many tins of sweetcorn into your units as me...

    jasonb, I didn't know that continuous hanging strip existed; it seems ideal.

    <u>Very</u> nice kitchen, by the way...
     
  14. Sean Hodges

    Sean Hodges New Member

    Hey chaps, keep the advice coming...

    Last week the tiler finished enough of the floor for my dad and I to get in and do the wall units. We took the advice given on this thread and spent ages getting the corner unit perfectly plumb (establishing in the process just how wobbly the walls were).
    We then built out along the whole wall, finishing the last bit with a unit very snugly fitted against the end wall.
    It was a pain to do, but I'm very pleased with the results - every carcase is horizontally and vertically in plumb (a lot better than the walls).

    Next step is to fit the bank of free-standing tall units, including oven and to find some way of concealing the large gap that there will be between wall and the top of the unit (decorative panels are far too small to cover it).

    After that I guess we will be psyched up enough to tackle the base units and worktop.

    Tonight I am returning another batch of flat-packed units to IKEA to change for 10cm shorter ones.
    One problem with IKEA kitchens is the fact that you don't get a true kitchen planner to assist you, so if you measure to the nearest centimetre there's no-one to tell you that you will be a cm or two short of space.

    I'm finding out the hard way, with several wasted trips to Croydon, and extra postage charges.

    The 'good' thing is that this has enabled my wife to change her mind about a couple of other units, so she will end up with the kitchen of her dreams (albeit fitted all wonky by an amateur!).
     
  15. devil's advocate

    devil's advocate New Member

    Hi Sean.

    I was wondering how you were getting on!

    For a first-timer, you are doing well to have gotten all your wall units up on your wobbly walls this weekend! I'm glad you're taking all the time you need to get the units fully plumb and square.

    Base (and wall) units come in exact widths, as you know. The problem comes with the 1000mm corner base units which have to be kept some <u>very</u> strange distances from the corners! If you aren't aware of this at the planning stage, it can really mess up you ideas!

    If there is any info I can help with, I'll be pleased to try, as I'm sure the others will too.

    Happy fitting!
     
  16. cpc

    cpc Member

    Make sure that you get your electrics tested before energizing.
    cpc
     
  17. Sean Hodges

    Sean Hodges New Member

    One good thing about replacing a kitchen is that virtually all the electrics remain the same.
    Only thing I have installed is the new cooker point. Connection of that to consumer unit will be done by my father (electrical engineer for decades).

    One new question for all the kitchen experts. I am putting in a Baumatic cooker hood (BT09SS) and it comes with grease filters. Apparently, to use it in recirculating mode (I can't duct the exhaust outdoors) I need to get their T1 carbon-filter at £8 a go (and I think I might need 2 of the things).

    Is it possible to get a cheaper/universal carbon filter that fits onto the 125mm ducting, for example on top of the wall units?

    Or does the carbon filter have to be the first thing that the greasy air hits?

    Before I get any rude comments, I think using an extractor without an external duct is pretty much a pointless (and expensive) exercise, but my wife insisted she wanted one.
     
  18. devil's advocate

    devil's advocate New Member

    Hi Sean,

    A recirculating hood isn't quite pointless, but, as you clearly know, it isn't <u>anywhere</u> near as effective as a ducted system.

    Whether you use the proper charcoal filters <u>or</u> a contrived one installed in the outlet duct, the grease filter is <u>still</u> the first one to be hit by cooking emissions - so it doesn't make any difference from that point of view. However, I don't know of any in-line type charcoal filter that you could modify to fit, but that's not to say it doesn't exist!

    I suspect it's down to £8 (or £16!) a throw every 6 months or so...

    As you sure there is no way you can run, say, a flexible ducting pipe along the tops of the wall units to get to an outside wall? I believe these ducts are also available in a flatish rectangular profile (roughly 5"x2"ish) which might help.

    A hood that ducts outdoors works <u>fantastically</u> well; one that recirculates is <u>always</u> a major compromise.
     
  19. Sean Hodges

    Sean Hodges New Member

    Kitchen is at the back of the old terraced house, but a glass-roofed conservatory has been added. I'd need very visible ducting across the kitchen ceiling, then across the whole width of the conservatory to access an outside wall.
    We'll just have to cut down on the fry-ups I guess.

    I used to live opposite a small burger shop, which specialised in flame-grilled burgers. Their kit was essentially a large griddle, with a huge steel duct above, leading to the roof.

    When it burned down, I heard that it was about the 3rd time it had gone, because all the fat would condense in the duct, forming huge grease-stalactites, which eventually caught fire.

    Since then I haven't been all that keen on the idea of ducting greasy air away!
     
  20. devil's advocate

    devil's advocate New Member

    Good story and good point!

    Hey! What are you doing on this forum - get back to your kitchen...
     

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