General election

Discussion in 'Just Talk' started by Deleted member 164349, Apr 18, 2017.

  1. You do realise that that comment is going to bite you on the backside in the near future, don't you ? :rolleyes:
  2. Phil the Paver

    Phil the Paver Screwfix Select

    Why is that Jack.???

    Without the EU we will lose all of our Bank Holidays and workers rights, those nasty Tories will take them away from us. You know the Holidays & Rights that most of the EU enjoy because if Britian. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
  3. P J Thompson

    P J Thompson Active Member

    I see ignorance is alive and well in the responses to my last post :D
    As if there weren't laws in place pre 94 to deal with someone who 'tipped a toff' or committed theft or drove an untaxed vehicle anorl :D

    The oft forgot political axis of libertarian versus authoritarian shows it's head. It seems some here just love them authoritarian laws.
  4. Very good points, much of which I would agree with in its essence.

    I don't know enough about these particular laws and how they have been 'enforced' to make a judgement on whether they are overall 'good' or 'bad' or both. I'm leaning towards feeling that the main reasons they are seen as 'bad' is precisely because they have been 'abused' so much, not that they are inherently wrong in the first place; does anyone here have an issue against an officer's right to 'stop and search' provided they have reasonable cause? I don't. Of course, the issue there is 'reasonable'.

    We have the right to peaceful protest. And shouldn't travellers be bound by the same responsibilities - and rights - as the rest of us, no more and no less?

    As for MPs representing their constituents - by the very diverse nature of a constituency's make-up, I cannot see how they can do that to any specific extent. And, yes, a Tory will essentially be a Tory whilst ditto for ditto - and that is the basis on which they are presumably elected.

    But there is room for making specific cases heard, provided enough people get together to do so. Isn't the real issue here 'apathy'?

    Do you have a working alternative to what we have, PJ?
    longboat likes this.

  5. Election time will be soon enough.

    You do realuse Germany has 17 (off top of my head, so might be slightly wrong) bank holidays? We get 8 ? Same as EU ?
  6. (Psssst - I've given up listening to Phil a while ago. As have most peeps on here...)

  7. How often does anybody contact an MP for a position, or to give an opinion?

    If an MP doesnt get any contact he may assume all is ok?

    I have badgered mine 3 times this year so far. We don't know each other personally, but he does know of me.

    And yes he is Tory, after a real hard brexit.

    Now, should I vote for him?
    Deleted member 33931 likes this.
  8. No.

    Absolutely not.

    I'll be voting Lib Dems down here. Regardless of Brexit, it would be nice to see the arris-end of Mr Cox - who is one of the highest paid MPs in Westminster, tying down a full-time job as a solicitor...

  9. Don't worry I would vote for jj or ptp before I voted for him. And there is no chance of that.

    Looks libdem for me too, as a tactical vote more than anything.
  10. P J Thompson

    P J Thompson Active Member

    The Germans have a system of proportional representation that works for them. When it was mooted here it was fudged as the alternative vote.
    Proper PR would be a good step. It would still be party politics of course but it would widen the political spectrum and therefore more views would be represented in parliamentary votes. Yes that would mean ukip as well as the greens! But you can't have it all :D
    Switzerland has a system whereby a referendum can be triggered by the people. If we had something like that here it would be another good step. The most objectionable statutes could be put to the people, by the people. The people could also trigger votes from scratch.
    Of course, reforms like these are steps not final solutions and they would require much more political nouse and input than the likes of Brenda think is needed. Brenda would appear to be happy with a dictatorship :(
  11. Referendums are a bad idea!

    I'm not saying that (just) because of Brexit - I'm saying it because they don't 'work'. At least not unless there is a higher pass mark of 65% or more.

    Scottish Indy? A divided and decisive public.
    Brexit? A ditto.
    Yugoslavia? Hundreds of thousands dead and genocide and war crimes on a hellish scale.

    Why don't Refs work? Because the population doesn't have a strong enough grasp of their critical faculties.

    PR or other voting system? Seems fair enough to me. Only one potential issue is that they tend to somewhat fudge good radical changes because of all the consensus that is required. But that's probably as good thing :)
  12. I dunno - I'd almost vote for PJT :D

  13. I can understand that.

    Bit radical, bit left. But thinks about things and understands
  14. joinerjohn1

    joinerjohn1 Screwfix Select

    You would also have to include yourself in the "population" DA, ;)
  15. P J Thompson

    P J Thompson Active Member

    Referenda work fine in Switzerland but you're right that you need the people to be properly informed. Here, we have everything but that, by design....

    Also by design are the fudges you mention re PR. No-one would have thought that fudged AV thing was a good idea...that's why it was presented to us ;)
  16. Harry Stottle

    Harry Stottle Screwfix Select

    First past the post is surely the best system; if more people want something than the people who want something else then the people get what the majority voted for. Often losers say it' not fair because counting in the people who don't vote or those who vote for something else entirely, means that more people don't want the winner than those who do. That's a fallacy because those who do not vote have no opinion, so they don't count, those who vote for something else entirely would have won if enough people wanted it.
    Proportional representation is too messy, not everyone understands the procedure and there's only one winner anyway.
    You're right PJ, referenda work well in Switzerland. I agree that people need to be informed, but in this era of mass communication there's no reason why anyone with a slight interest can't find the information necessary to make a decision. Lets keep things simple and easy for everyone to understand, with a winner being whoever or whatever most people want.
  17. I bet you wrote that without even blushing, 'arry?

    And therein lies the problem.

    With emphasis on 'lies'.
    Deleted member 164349 likes this.
  18. Pr in theory has to be the ideal.

    Difficult to control, explain, inform and implement.

    But if 49% of people are not represented then that is not a true representation of the electorate. Is it harry?

    So 1st past the post represents the majority? Ok
  19. Phil the Paver

    Phil the Paver Screwfix Select

    Pssssssst, I don't give a ****.
  20. P J Thompson

    P J Thompson Active Member

    First past the post does anything BUT what you say. I'll hold up UKIP as a notable example. 4 million odd votes, 12.5% of the vote and....1 seat. Many would be glad they only got one seat but that can't be considered democratic. In the same election the Liberals got 8% of the vote and...8 seats. If you think that's a system that's fit for purpose then wow, just wow.
    PR in pure form isn't messy. It's just different....and more democratic (though of course in reality it'd still be dominated by party politics). It's only when stupidly complicated ideas like the Alternative Vote get conjured up by either idiots or those with a strong interest in blocking PR that it gets complicated. Look at the system of seats and fptp anyway, it's not exactly simple!
    At the moment with this system there is absolutely no point in voting if you live in a safe seat and vote against the sitting party. Your vote means nothing, nada, zilch so why bother? They may as well not bother having a ballot in these seats and just have them in marginals. This isn't democracy!

    PR isn't perfect but it's way better and way more like a democracy than this fptp mess.

    You're absolutely right that in the info age you can easily find stuff. Can you find unbiased, impartial stuff that easily though? A forensic breakdown of 'facts' and effects? Ok sites like Factcheck exist but most google searches reveal articles and comment that is anything but unbiased. All of the main stream media sites (which dominate results) have a 'leaning', tow the line of the ideology they claim to support.
    The internet and info age are not necessarily the friend of those looking for impartial data to help them make political decisions.
    Our education system does nothing to prepare da yoot for life as part of the electorate. nothing to encourage them to engage politically.
    Politicians do nothing to encourage Brenda to engage, on the contrary they behave so badly that they encourage apathy.
    In my view you can't point at one thing and say, change this and it'll all come good. You have to broaden the focus and address many areas of how we go about things.

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