Hands up if you have voted?

Discussion in 'Just Talk' started by goldenboy, May 23, 2019.

  1. Bollerks

    Bollerks Active Member

    It is really all about the right to self determination and for making our MPs accountable for a change. They are terrified that if we leave, they will be held directly accountable for their actions rather than being able to lay off the blame to Brussels. That is how weak the people are who supposedly run our country. There's no self-belief, no confidence in ourselves, no backbone. Time we had some of that back. I am sick and tired of people talking down this country and asserting that we would fail on our own.

    How the hell did we manage before we joined the eu?

    The EU project has been going on for 70 years. But that is not the EU project that the general public is aware of. As for prosperity, the European steel and coal treaty or what ever it was called had nothing to do with our prosperity as we were not part of it. I would willingly return to the 7% growth rate we had prior to joining the EEC. We were far from the sick man of Europe that is commonly portrayed in the mainstream media. Our medium term economic record prior to 1973 doesn't fit the establishment's narrative. As for security the EU has done didley squat for that and it's getting getting worse.

    EU defence policy:

    1. Scrap NATO
    2. **** off the Americans and portray them as anti EU
    3. Build a brand new mega new defense HQ to house an over bloated over paid over pensioned defense bureaucracy.
    4. Appoint all your mates or yourself to said bureaucracy
    5. Spend other countries money to implement this policy, no guesses who I am referring to there.
    6. Replace all German tanks gun barrels with broom handles to scare the Russians so they don't get any ideas.
    7 .......

    You get the idea!

    As for the breakup of the EU, being a negative it might just save our bacon.
  2. chippie244

    chippie244 Super Member

    Before the EU we had an empire and 2 World Wars.
    The EU isn't trying to scrap NATO that's Trump
    Germany was the front line but now it isn't.
  3. ajohn

    ajohn Screwfix Select

    I'm a half hearted remainer. I don't see any option in this and related areas such as economy, politics or the EU or anything else like that as perfect. So it's a case of what is least worse. Along side that several personal experiences have taught me that I can't just accept what I will call the media tells me. Media includes party political broadcasts and really any source of information on the woolly world of "politics". Even the CBI and similar are in real terms into that. All will have some form of spin aimed at getting people to agree with them. All will find some way of telling us how wonderful they are and how bad the others are. A fair few of them will also be idealists - the only way is their way. Take the greens for instance, ditch cars, plastics and etc tomorrow. If they were ever in total power they would find that things aren't as simple as that. Take a politician, Blare. In his youth totally against nuclear. Eventually he grew up. The greens may have to one day. Some are just plain twisted.

    So in or out of the EU. Doesn't seem too bad to me being in. We've had a bit of a rough ride in terms of relative personal wealth with the rest but I can't see that this has anything to do with them. The GBP and it's real world value has so I would have loved to be in the Euro as I would be richer. On the other hand I know if I was too rich in this respect it wouldn't do the country much good. We could have been too rich at one point.

    Out of the EU. Black hole, go walk around cliffs blind folded. There is no way of knowing how it will work out. One thing for sure is that if it did bring UK industry back it would take a hell of a long time and we would need to be as cheap as the Chinese and have similar living costs. Investment in manufacture goes to places that result in max profit. People that buy the stuff to sell or make use of do so where it is cheapest. That hasn't always been the case. Take Japanese car plants. Set up and ok buy locally providing that parts meet our quality requirements. That period seems to be ending. I don't think Brexit has much to do with it other than the parent companies wont stand tariffs into Europe. The European companies that have parts made here wont either. Rolls Royce one of a remaining biggies is telling their supplier to get stuff made in China to get costs down. My brother works in that area, it's a fact. He tenders for work all over the world and wouldn't blame the EU for any of his problems. ;) He would ***** about changes in management style. Me too, that's why I retired. Banks etc have made it very clear about how they feel about not being able to trade in the EU. That may result in a reduction of tax that the gov can collect. Other parts of the EU would love to get that business.

  4. Bollerks

    Bollerks Active Member

    And before the eu we prevailed on each occasion.
    The eu, by not stumping up it's dues, is indirectly destroying NATO. Trump is simply saying 'No more defence on the cheap - pay your fair share into the pot'.
    The front line is where the enemy says it is.
  5. Diyloser

    Diyloser Active Member

    We are far from being the sick man of Europe today, in fact we are possibly one of the strongest, yet we are told we couldn't survive without them.
  6. ajohn

    ajohn Screwfix Select

    Growth rates don't include trading gaps any more only what is spent so even inflation impacts them and GBP value. The USA is anti EU for very obvious reasons even though in some areas the EU needs to listen to them. The USA's main interest is maintaining it's dominance. Some EU people want to be part of a super power. Actually to be totally free of external influences that's not a bad idea. Anyway some things are talked about but never happen. I'd wonder if the EU can afford it or even use it really. NATO costs even though the USA reckon they carry it. Why not look at doing the same as they do another way.

    I mentioned why UK coal bit the dust earlier. What you probably didn't notice was that a brand new mine was opened as the others were shut because it was economically favourable. It's mined out now. You must have noticed that coal was shut down in 2 areas separately to maintain supply. Also divide and conquer. Wales first and then the other major area. You must also realise that in part the shut downs were due to coal bringing a government down - the 3 day week.

    Manufacture had other problems. Maybe you don't remember asset stripping. Buy up, split into little bits and sell for a profit. Or a variation on it - buy up, take what is wanted that they have and just dispose of the rest. ;) That's what happened to Vickers - the factory was bull dozed - bit extreme but other vaguely similar things were going on. The company I started with asset stripped itself. Lucas Industries. The shareholders eventually did well out of it as did the directors. The other problem was the return on capital investment - more could be made elsewhere or by simply allowing things to run down.

    There is another aspect with companies as well that I think is down to WWII and exchange control - concentrate on creating jobs. Many companies had too many people working for them.

    Then last but not least is the so called British Disease.


    There is far more precise info on that here. In some respects it's still about and we aren't the only ones with poor economic performance either.


    LOL Giving jobs to chums - sure that goes on everywhere and at all levels. As does favouring people with certain back grounds. Farage's spouts on that neglect the fact that they are elected as are our own politicians in similar areas by the party that is in control. A bit different to one wing of a place I worked in - want to have one of the better jobs be a mason. A serious crime outfit was disbanded for that. Last place I worked at someone managed to get some one in who went to the same higher end school he did. Senior management often appear from no where - not unusual for them to know who ever appoints them. That can be good or bad.

  7. chippie244

    chippie244 Super Member

    We prevailed because we had our empire, the USA and Russia helping us, we don't have any of that now in fact Russia and the USA want the EU broken up so that we are easy pickings.
    Are you so unpatriotic that you want our country taken apart by others?
    You obviously know nothing about front lines or you wouldn't spout such rubbish.
    I thought Eire was neutral in WW2 so being a Dubliner it wouldn't have involved you.
  8. ajohn

    ajohn Screwfix Select

  9. joinerjohn1

    joinerjohn1 Screwfix Select

    Broon, you only have to read the ranting in the media and on here to realise that remainers have not accepted the result of the referendum. Had they done that, no one would be asking for another referendum so vociferously. Chip, ajohn etc would be quietly posting knowledgable replies to others questions on diy etc. Alas no, here they are hour after hour posting reasons for the UK to remain under the EU's dictatorship.
  10. Bob Rathbone

    Bob Rathbone Screwfix Select

    I have a 1943 Jeep from WWII, despite being my property for over 45 years, the UK only paid for it 10 years ago. That's how long it took the UK to pay off the 'Lend Lease' agreement. The USA did not help us out of the kindness of their hearts, it was a purely financial transaction, so don't get too dewy eyed about the Yanks and WWII.
  11. ajohn

    ajohn Screwfix Select

    It's a good job the Russian built huge quantities of various arms and stamped all over them and neither us or the usa had to pay for that.

  12. ajohn

    ajohn Screwfix Select

    Sound like a stuck record. Maybe if that is all you can say you should come up with some valid reasons instead. I'm still waiting for them.

    Maybe you would prefer a summary

  13. goldenboy

    goldenboy Super Member

    You lap it up.

    Its almost like complaining about those with a different opinion is your essential lifeblood
  14. goldenboy

    goldenboy Super Member

    John, anyone who doesnt adhere 100% to his mantra is fair game for his relentless barrage of outrage and indignation.
  15. chippie244

    chippie244 Super Member

    More American soldiers died in WW2 than British and the Russians lost vastly more.
  16. Bollerks

    Bollerks Active Member

    Roosevelt did do a good stitch-up I agree. 50-odd old clapped-out WW1 destroyers which were due for scrapping anyway, but you have to set this against the backdrop that we were pretty much the last wholly occupied country in the Western european region at that time, and at that point we had our backs pretty much against the wall. It was right that we had to pay for what we got but the deal was very one-sided. Only later, when the nips kicked off in the Pacific theatre after they got into bed with Hitler did the US actually begin to see the real threat to their own soil and their own interests.
    If it comes down to a p---ing contest, which country lost the highest number of its own population?
  17. chippie244

    chippie244 Super Member

  18. ajohn

    ajohn Screwfix Select

    LOL I haven't got a black and white view of anything in this general area really. All that can be said about Brexit positively is it is a pretty unique idea at a country level. Makes a change from just seeing what other countries have done and trying it here. You know some feel that once we are out they will do what Singapore did. Concentrate on education as jobs will then pour in. Trouble with that is it was a long time ago and also meant a lot of long term early problems for it's people and it wont get what is being done there transfered here. In fact there are a whole load of factors that make the basic idea a load of ****.

    Some of the abuses of factors that make people think out amaze me. Nato for instance. Do people ever think. Trump says you are going to pay more to support it. So a group of people say ok but what would it mean if we formed another one. First thing would be comparative cost. More or less than nato. 2nd one may be jobs - say it costs more is that worth it in terms of new jobs. Also the political aspect - would it be good for the EU. In short they are doing their jobs. They are not saying the EU is doing it. :) Might also be a form of diplomasy - watch out USA we might just do it. :) Actually Brexit for all we know might be a form of that, that's what May's deal migh all be about - get something better or else. Doesn't sound to be that way but Boris was fond of that aspect.

  19. Dave Marques

    Dave Marques Member

    which country lost the highest number of its own population?

    I think that was Poland.
  20. Bollerks

    Bollerks Active Member

    Don't forget that we were sending arms and gold bullion to Stalin via the Arctic convoys too - for all the thanks we got. My friend's father (RN Destroyer escort) only received his Arctic convoy service medal after he had passed away - there's thanks for you. My grandfather was torpedoed twice - once in WW1 and once in WW2 during his merchant service.
    Ireland was neutral but that didn't stop Irishmen from volunteering for service.
    Sweden( and Switzerland) was also supposedly neutral, but that didn't stop them - from sending raw materials to Germany.

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