HELP- are my joists ruined?

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Dandleswekkah

Guest
So we had central heating installed and were later told that the plumbers had cut through the joists when they shouldn't have- the floorboards were essentially resting on the pipes etc.... So then somebody came along and drilled holes through the joists under the cuts to feed the pipes through instead... See below photos..
I can't help but feel like they have weakened an already weakened joist... Is this correct??? What shall I do?

(The cuts/holes are in the middle of the joist - the centre of the house)
 

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Certainly going to be weaker, but what was wrong in the first place, pipes looked deep enough to clear floorboards.
 
Not ideal, but i've seen worse. I would suggest you do nothing other that keep an eye on it once everything is back together. If any cracks start to appear then you might need to do something. But that is very very unlikely
 
My eyes tell me they are supported underneath?

Mr. HandyAndy - Really
 
I have no idea... Just doesn't make sense to me to drill a hole in an already notched joist? I'm hoping they are supported underneath... its a 60s house...not sure if that would mean anything?
 
It is excessive notching and drilling yes, spread out over the length of the joist it wouldn't be an issue, but bunched together like the photo shows is not ideal. Can the pipes be run in another area not so close to the weak point? Can the cables be temporarily removed, either a new joist fitted alongside and bolted, or a rip of 3/4 inch ply glued and screwed the length of the joist both sides to sandwich the weakened area together?

If not, an alternative(but probably overkill for your situation) is to replace the timber floorboards with chipboard sheets, glued and screwed to the joists, this will tie everything together strongly but you are knackered if you need to take the floor up at a later date for access.
 
It is a relatively easy and a common thing to fix.

The best way is to get some 18mm plywood cut into strips the same height as the floor joists. These are then glued and screwed (or bolted) onto either side of the josts. Ideally you want to get a good length either side of the old cut out and notch for the new pipe location - you may want to lift a few extra floor boards to make access easier . Where you have had to notch for the new pipe locations, glue a piece back in and then glue and screw a batten (or ply) over the notch.

Some timber yards (or B&Q) will cut the ply for you in strips and use a good quality construction adhesive like gripfill or similar.

If there are any pipes or cables still left near the top of the joist it would be best to get some "protection plates" which go across the top of the joist to stop someone accidently putting a nail into them
 
Dandie, don't worry too much about it. Your hoosie ain't going to come down.

As Mr Ha asks - can we see a supporting wall underneath these joists running at right angles to them and very close to where the cut-outs are?

If 'yes', then definitely don't worry; that part of the joists will largely be under a 'shearing' force, so is plenty thick.

If 'no' then still don't worry, although it's not at all ideal. The closer they are to the centres of an unsupported joist run, the more bending force they'll be under (with the 'missing' top edge in compression), so here they can make a very noticeable difference.

But I suspect that, since you presumably didn't notice any issues with your floor until now, it isn't particularly springy?

Now that the plumbers have done the 'right' thing, I'd certainly sort these cutouts tho'.

The holes drilled in the centres was the correct (best) method, as these parts of the joists don't have any significant forces on it. Cutting the notches out of the tops does weaken the joists, but they are usually 'oversized' anyway and can cope.But it ain't ideal.

However, it largely comes down to where these cutouts are along the length of the joists; if they were anywhere near the middle of the joist runs, then that could significantly weaken the floor, and I think you could at least expect more springiness in it. If they are close to the walls where they are supported, then I doubt you'd notice any difference at all.

What to do? Sos's plan sounds good. Are the plumbers intending to do this for you, or is there a chippie also working in the house who will do so? The reason I ask this is, if the plumbers haven't said anything to you about how to reinforce these top cutouts, then why the hell did they not just reuse them rather than drill fresh holes?!

Almost certainly you'd have been fine to use them for your new plumbing runs, except with the addition of wooden blocks in between the pipes (but not too tight to them to cause expansion noises) to come up to the exact same level as the joist tops to support the floorboards.

If the plumbers are thinking "We'll do it the best way and drill central holes and the cutouts can simply stay there 'cos they are not a problem..." then they are a bit silly and haven't done anything to actually improve the situation here. In fact they've made it marginally worse.

So, bottom line is that you will almost certainly be ok even if you leave it as it is. If the cutouts are near the ends of the joists, then that's especially the case - it should be fine. But I'd definitely do 'something' with them since the plumbers have gorn to the trouble of being pedants... :)

Certainly, if the cutouts are anywhere in the middle of the joist spans, then super-definitely reinforce them.

How to? As Sos says, cut strips of 18mm ply to span over these cutouts extending by - ooh - around a foot further each way past the cutout ends. These strips could be the full height of the joists - in which case you'd have to cut slots in them so's you can slip them over the now-centred pipes - or (what I would do) is simply make them wide enough to fit from just above these new pipe runs up to the tops of the joists. Basically so's they cover these cutouts with a nice overlap.

Then I'd personally PVA (use plenty - the joists have a course surface) them to each side of the joists and then fix in place using a half-dozen or so 1.5" screws driven in at even spacings. Once that sets, it'll be bludy strong. Obviously make sure the top edges of the strips are dead level with the joist tops so's the floorboards remain perfectly level.

You could even do this by cutting timber battens to fit inside these cutouts. They'd have to be cut accurately, tho', with the tinniest of 'slopes' at each end, and a good tight 'interference' fit in the slots. Again coated in PVA and 'ammered into place. These top parts will be in compression, so it's important that the inserts are dead snug.

Personally, the ply method is easiest to get right.

(I'd love to know if the plumbers are going to suggest the cutouts are sorted tho'! If they don't recommend you do this, then while the hell did they not just keep them rather than make the situation 'worse'!
 
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See the middle joist in the first picture, why is the top part of that joist a lighter wood colour? Has that whole top section been replaced?!

If so, is that piece fitted really tightly in to the rest of the joist - nicely snug at the ends?
 
See the middle joist in the first picture, why is the top part of that joist a lighter wood colour? Has that whole top section been replaced?!

If so, is that piece fitted really tightly in to the rest of the joist - nicely snug at the ends?


If you look closely, you will see its just a peice of timber fitted to the joist.
 
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