How can i copy a door entry key fob

Discussion in 'Engineers' Talk' started by hi2u_uk, Mar 19, 2016.

  1. hi2u_uk

    hi2u_uk Member

    I would like a second key fob to enter the front door of my block of flats. Apparently these key fobs cost £50 for one if i am to request this from the management company of the block . Is there any way i can get a simple piece of kit to copy this key fob more cheaply ? are lock smiths able to copy door entry key fobs more cheaply ?
  2. Jitender

    Jitender Screwfix Select

    I don't think so.

    Only the management would have the permission to obtain extra fobs as they will need programming.

    Even my front door key needs ordering through Yale as the locksmith cant copy it.
  3. Rulland

    Rulland Screwfix Select

    £50's steep, seeing as the most a fob costs is less than a fiver.
  4. Jitender

    Jitender Screwfix Select

    The admin cost is probably £45
  5. hi2u_uk

    hi2u_uk Member

    It explains why i was only given one in the first place , i have found places in America online who can do it cheaper (including postage) though i cant post it anywhere as i only have one
    I think i may have found someone a few miles away that may be able to copy it for £10
  6. Jitender

    Jitender Screwfix Select

    If you were a couple, wouldn't they need to supply 2 cards so that both parties can gain access?
  7. hi2u_uk

    hi2u_uk Member

    its a 2bed flat , they only supplied one
  8. hi2u_uk

    hi2u_uk Member

    i asked the letting agent at the time and they said they didnt have another one and said that i would have to contact the management agency
  9. Mr. Handyandy

    Mr. Handyandy Screwfix Select

    I fear you would need the management to agree with any copying anyway, otherwise could be breach of tenancy.

    Mr. HandyAndy - Really
  10. Rulland

    Rulland Screwfix Select

    Ultimately any key/fob can be copied by some means!, I should know, as Mr H above tbh.
  11. emsgeorge

    emsgeorge New Member

    Simply put, you can't.

    Let me explain:

    The card you have, is simply a unique 16 digit number. When you present the card to the door reader, the system itself (not the card) is programmed to say ' Aha, I know this card number, it's valid, and I will let you in '.
    Although some very old card types can be copied, almost all of the modern ones can't be. So, you couldn't clone the card number onto another card.

    The cost from the landlords will be to send someone out to add another card to the system. The cost will be the callout, not the card. Even the most expensive prox cards are less than £3 each.

    Quite why they don't have any live spare cards is beyond me, although if the access control person is getting a callout fee for adding a card, I can see why they aren't programming a batch of 20 at a time ......
  12. Brian_L

    Brian_L Active Member

    Just look on Ebay, you'll get half a dozen fobs and a copying device for £10.
  13. fire

    fire Well-Known Member

    Well do you want a full tutorial or just the basics?
  14. hi2u_uk

    hi2u_uk Member

    i actually went to three locksmiths on the high street who had an advert on line which said they could copy key fobs for tower blocks, i even confirmed over the phone before going as they were all quite far. when i got to the shops they looked at the fob and said it was too sophisticated for them to copy , so a full tutorial may be useful o_O
  15. fire

    fire Well-Known Member

    Ok well here goes, a hacker in a single forum post now this will be challenging typing.

    You will need a computer, laptop or desktop with a serial interface either USB(most common) or an RS232 which is the old 9 pin D type serial com port.

    You need to buy a RFID reader and writer preferably USB connected type for which you will install to your computer and install software drivers as needed.

    What you will be doing is reading the keyfobs RAW data and capturing it onto your computer. From there you will then push the data back into a new blank compatible keyfob.

    So you need to source the keyfob reader and writer and a new blank keyfob to write the raw data to after you have captured it.
    Yes it can be somewhat tricky but not impossible, most software you can source on the web for this task and you will need to play with it to get it working.
    If you were using a GNU Linux platform then things would be allot easier as tailing and capturing the raw input data is simpler in a terminal. With windows you rely on the drivers and GUI software for the most part to do all this for you although you can use the windows shell to achieve the same task as is used on GNU Linux.

    All you want to do is capture a full image of the RAW data on the keyfob, you wont need to break it down, decrypt it or change it in anyway as you are literally just copying it onto a new keyfob so all the strange looking data you will see when you dump the data will just be irrelevant and humanly unreadable.

    Just understand it as a blob of data that you will push onto the new keyfob. That is it, most of the software in windows will automatically do the checksum for you but in some cases you will need to make sure the checksum and all the relevant points are identical before you write the data to the new keyfob. As i said sometimes it can be a bit tricky and may take a few tweaks to get it to work.

    So this is how it is done in a nutshell.
    The reason most locksmiths struggle with this is that they have proprietary equipment that is specific only to particular manufactures so they don't hack it, they use a expensive paid proprietary service to clone the fob. Anything that is outside of the capabilities of the version of clone device they have can not be done. In the future locksmiths will in fact be hackers rather than the traditional locksmith, it is just the way things are changing.

    I am seeing allot of proprietary highly secured firmware being used into washing machines, dishwashers and even fridges now. This is a bad move as the manufacturer does not have control of their own product, a third party vendor for the firmware has the ability to make or break a manufacturer at the flick of a switch. Seriously bad news across all aspects of the consumer market goods.

    Hackers really are the last defence against this massive proprietary market control through firmware blobbing, every second there is a large corporation trying to make hacking illegal but they fail every time. Now more and more they use mainstream media to paint hacking as this seriously dangerous and bad thing by using scaremongering to frighten you into thinking it is something that is and should be illegal. It really is not and is as in your case one of the only ways to get a job done to clone your own keyfob which is your property, or is it really?

    Serious stuff to say the least but yes, i hope this points you in the right direction. As with every kind of hacking, you have nothing to loose and a world of knowledge to gain by hacking you keyfob so get busy. There is lots of us out here on the web fully willing to help for free, after all that is how we defeat this massive corporate dictatorship and return freedom back to the consumer.
  16. Rulland

    Rulland Screwfix Select

    Whilst I agree with most of your post Mr Fire, hacking things that you shouldn't hack for financial or ethic reasons, is morally wrong imho.
    Fobs that allow access to access controlled areas, cctv, intruder alarms etc etc, the ramifications could be very costly.
    I also don't think it's a dictatorship, you would be well upset if your intruder alarm, central heating-the list is endless-were compromised by a third party who's only interest was 'can I do it?', yes, 'so let's see what damage/financial gain I can achieve'.
    Encryption etc is put in place because unscrupulous scrotes are getting better, it doesn't mean one has to assist their endeavours at being an easy touch I reckon.
    jacobite and fire like this.
  17. fire

    fire Well-Known Member

    Yes i do appreciate that view deeply. You are correct with everything good there also comes bad and it is one of those things of finding the balance between it.

    What is moral for one person is immoral for another, its one of them kind of things set by the point of view in a way.

    Recently i had a new washing machine delivered to a client from Hotpoint. Hotpoint have decided to outsource the firmware to an Italian company who supply a fully flashed computerised control board.
    This may sound good but the problem began where the engineers trying to fix a month old washer could not program the internal flash rom. The system uses a proprietary one time only flash card system and each flash card cost in excess of £100 so each failed flash wipes the security flash card. That is pretty expensive at £100 a pop for a failed flashing.

    Worst yet the inconvenience caused to the customer is unrepairable damage to the company at the cost of the 3rd party who is laughing all the way to the bank.

    From this point of view hacking is very morally correct but as you say from the point of view of a security system that saves lives and keeps people safe then this could well be immoral if abused by particular undesirable persons.

    There is a fine line in this for sure, what could well be an innocent hack may well become a serious threat to peoples safety. Is the price worth paying to guarantee our freedom or is it worth loosing aspects of our freedom to preserve this? To be or not to be, that is the question.

    Take the GNU OpenPGP system. This has become the most secure method of encryption on the planet because the source code is open and readily available a clever method had to be made so that the generated keys are random in nature and seriously difficult to crack. That alone created a huge problem but created a great benefit as our own security can be safe but at the same time terrorists that wish to do us harm can use the same technology and avoid capture.
    How can you have one without the other, so our communications remain unencrypted and insecure with major servers rejecting encrypted traffic which could well keep us safe as so GCHQ can intercept transmissions which could well be a intercepted communication that would secure our safety from terrorists. Do we want GCHQ intercepting our communications? Is this Moral?

    Moral point of view, how can you have your cake and eat it...
    Rulland likes this.
  18. Rulland

    Rulland Screwfix Select

    Your last post actually makes sense, and I agree with it, your previous post almost condoned certain underhand procedures, which I, and I hope you, do not see as good practice mate :cool:
    fire likes this.
  19. philthespark

    philthespark Active Member

    Reading Fire's post I have to agree with him,a few years back I'd bought something and just out of warranty it packed up,now fixing it would have been simple except for an issue accessing the control system,I rang the manufacturer and they said yes,it could be done but only by them and the cost was ridiculous,I was fuming,if I could access it I could repair it myself for less than 20 quid.I ended up having a blazing row with them,once you buy something it is yours,it should be made illegal for a manufacturer to hold you to ransom!Ok you could argue about invalidating warranty's but when it's out of warranty what's the problem? Lets be honest if I install say an alarm system for someone then if they want something doing to it during the warranty period then by rights they should come to me,however once the warranty expires they are free to do whatever they want.
  20. Bazza-spark

    Bazza-spark Screwfix Select

    A word of caution about clonng the fob.

    Some of the more modern access cotrol software clocks you in and out. If it knows you are in, and you try to get in again it can lock both fobs out so you will not be able to get in at all. You will then have to explain to the landlord why you need new fobs.

    I'm not saying your system is that "intelligent" but advising caution.

    Kind regards

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