How dare you ......

[joinerjohn1]

I think the problem is that you have laid out some laughable theory that unless you are a voter in the US you cant offer an opinion on who you would vote for given the chance. That's just a crock to dodge answering the question.

Not at all GB, I have explained my logical reasoning, which you fail to see. Perhaps you think all Remainers, like yourself in this country would have voted for Clinton, (or perhaps you just assume they would, taking no account of the different society in the USA )
I'll ask you these two hypothetical questions then, Q1 "Had you been raised as a Catholic in Northern Ireland, which party would you have voted for in the last General Election ?" Q2 "Had you been raised as a Protestant in Northern Ireland, which party would you have voted for in the last General Election ?" Answer as honestly as you can please.

 

[Isitreally]

But you don't need to; when Macron was challenging Le Pen at the last French election



And what a grand job he's doing.

 

[Isitreally]

Trump is absolutely bricking it according to those close to him.


And of course they personal told you that didn't they.???

Or did gleen it from some ultra left-wing Trump hating news source.

That'll be the latter then.

 

[btiw2]

I also believe my reference to the majority of Leave voters to be true.

Decisive? Yes, of course - how can it not be. That's going to be be somehow helped by not saying things as they are, not addressing what has driven this? Hmm.

Assigning characteristics to people based on their group membership is pretty much the definition of prejudice.

Many people who voted leave gave economics as their reason (in some studies this was ranked higher than immigration).

Many of those who listed immigration also did so for economic reasons (competition for jobs and resources).

These comments of yours follow the same pattern as other prejudiced rants.

Let’s play mad libs.
Not all X are Y, but all Y are X.

What’s Y?
Not all X are terrorists, but all terrorists are X?
Or:
Not all X are racists, but all racists are X?

Recognise the pattern? I’ve seen both types of statement on here.

You’re one step away from:
“Those bloody X, they’re all thick, a few are alright like Y, but most of ‘em...”

I think these generalisations are ugly, lazy and wrong.

Sure, challenge individuals, but we should probably quit the generalisations.

Dunno why I’m bothering to reply. This is like arguing with a fundamentalist Christian.

 

[WillyEckerslike]

Assigning characteristics to people based on their group membership is pretty much the definition of prejudice.

Many people who voted leave gave economics as their reason (in some studies this was ranked higher than immigration).

Many of those who listed immigration also did so for economic reasons (competition for jobs and resources).

These comments of yours follow the same pattern as other prejudiced rants.

Let’s play mad libs.
Not all X are Y, but all Y are X.

What’s Y?
Not all X are terrorists, but all terrorists are X?
Or:
Not all X are racists, but all racists are X?

Recognise the pattern? I’ve seen both types of statement on here.

You’re one step away from:
“Those bloody X, they’re all thick, a few are alright like Y, but most of ‘em...”

I think these generalisations are ugly, lazy and wrong.

Sure, challenge individuals, but we should probably quit the generalisations.

Dunno why I’m bothering to reply. This is like arguing with a fundamentalist Christian.

The majority of this post is a far more eloquent version of what I was getting at from the very outset. Thank you.

 

[Allsorts]

I just have to ask, why you two GB and DA, have such a passion for American politics ?

Seriously? America is the most powerful country on this planet, the Pres the most powerful single individual. What's the saying?; 'When America sneezes, the world catches a cold and the UK gets put on life-support' or summat.


But the real reason I ask folk on here how they'd vote if they were not Brits living in Britland is to test their ideology; is the Brexit issue for Brexit-voters peculiar to this country and its hangup with the EU or is it an indication of something more innate - a jingoism, a xenophobia, a hankering to a 'great' past where that country strode the world and put folk in their place - and should do so again.

There is no question to me that for the u-s and many Leavers it's the latter, hence they'd vote 'populist-swaggering-bullish-BS-ego-massaging' in whichever country they lived.

This psbbsem has always lain just below the surface, but as long as the economy rambled on at a fairly steady lick folk didn't have too much to complain about; they could generally see that things were getting better and that they were better off than their parents. A period of (possibly unnecessary?) austerity put paid to that - as it has always done in history. History is quite important in this regard.

This grumbling resentment that couldn't usually be aired because it would be seen as being unreasonable, unjustified, bigoted and frankly ridiculous is now given vent, and this is almost always triggered by a toxic spokesman (almost always a man, of course). As always in history - because mankind is but an animal and works on instinct which we have learned to rationalise & reason with for the greater benefit - that reasoning is for many just a veneer. All it takes to crack that veneer is a couple of things; the first, as I said, is the figurehead - a person who claims he represents you - and the other is the luck of the draw, that you are born in a place that allows this outlet; it gives you a feeling of superiority just to belong to this group, and this group is naturally superior and is therefore owed more. The cororally is that there must surely be someone else trying to have what's rightfully yours...

Hence I ask about Trump - probably the most extreme example of his type. So over-blown and so devoid of values and dignity that he is bound to ultimately fail because of the lack of reasoning, thought, honesty and empathy behind his persona.

Heat - to his bear credit - has hinted that he would vote for Trump, but only after he ridiculously tried to justify this by bring the alternative candidate down to Trump's level.

JJ simply refuses to answer this hypothetical. That's good - it shows us a lot more than a simple "Yes, I would!" would have done.

I've already mentioned Le Pen. I could add Tommy Robinson, Farage, Banks, Bannon - any bigoted right-wing extremist - all of them defended by the u-s on here. I could cite the sources they will use and also defend - Breitbart, InfoWars, any number of Mogg facebook pages...

What drives the u-s like this is also happening across Europe and beyond, wherever there is a new populist, right-wing government. All the characteristics of these groups are to be found; isolationism, xenophobia, authoritarianism, a suppression of the free press. Turkey's democratic rise is now in shreds. Erdoğan harks back incessantly to the Ottoman Empire, promotes anti-Semitism, suppresses the free press, jails reporters and academics, attacks the judiciary, removes Darwin from school text books.

Trump harangues everything that is against him - much like his Turkish counterpart - with a tirade of blatant lies. We are nowhere near this in the UK, of course, but they are bedfellows and we have seen the headlines in the Mail - 'betrayal', 'enemies of the people', 'traitors'.

The ideology is the same - which is why I take the u-s on here to task.

 

[Allsorts]

Assigning characteristics to people based on their group membership is pretty much the definition of prejudice.

Many people who voted leave gave economics as their reason (in some studies this was ranked higher than immigration).

Many of those who listed immigration also did so for economic reasons (competition for jobs and resources).

These comments of yours follow the same pattern as other prejudiced rants.

Let’s play mad libs.
Not all X are Y, but all Y are X.

What’s Y?
Not all X are terrorists, but all terrorists are X?
Or:
Not all X are racists, but all racists are X?

Recognise the pattern? I’ve seen both types of statement on here.

You’re one step away from:
“Those bloody X, they’re all thick, a few are alright like Y, but most of ‘em...”

I think these generalisations are ugly, lazy and wrong.

Sure, challenge individuals, but we should probably quit the generalisations.

Dunno why I’m bothering to reply. This is like arguing with a fundamentalist Christian.

I have assigned a characteristic to a specific group of Leavers - who happen to have that characteristic.

It doesn't apply to all Leavers on here, but to the specific group of leavers. You know this.

 

[btiw2]

I have assigned a characteristic to a specific group of Leavers - who happen to have that characteristic.

It doesn't apply to all Leavers on here, but to the specific group of leavers. You know this.

A quick use of the search function shows that you’ve applied negative characteristics to: “Leavers”, “most leavers” and “the vast majority of leavers”.

I don’t think I’m being pedantic. It isn’t just once, you (we?) do it often. Now it appears that you’re trying to deny it.

 

[joinerjohn1]

The real reason you ask how we'd vote in another country, is not to test our ideology, but rather to support your claim that we'd vote a certain way, without ever taking into account a different countries sociology, economics, politics, everything.
You fail to see the point I'm trying so hard to make. If I'd been born and raised in America, what socio-economic group would I have been born into? ( or are you simply assuming I'd still be a working class man) Would I be an upper class Boston socialite? Would I be some person living in the ghetto ? Now go back and re-phrase your question.
Try answering the question I asked of GB in post #81 as honestly as you can.

 

[joinerjohn1]

JJ simply refuses to answer this hypothetical. That's good - it shows us a lot more than a simple "Yes, I would!" would have done

Not at all, it shows that you're reading something into it that you want to hear.

 

[Odd Bodkin]

When some folk began targeting Polish people with abuse and physical intimidation days after the referendum result does indicate the level of intelligence of a certain section of society which the Brexit campaign targeted. "Stupid is as stupid does" is a homely adage that may be applied to this section of society; riddled with petty prejudice over 'damn forriners' - or anyone else who doesn't subscribe to their viewpoint.
(They're also the sort of folk who generally read The Sun/ Daily Star, watch soaps and reality tv shows, and will proudly refer to themselves as "real people". They're also quite likely to become confused between a paediatrician and a paedophile.)
This is not to infer everyone who voted for Brexit does any of those things or even consorts with the sub-section of society who has trouble holding a knife and fork.
They are, however, most likely to have suffered as a result of austerity and EU policies which have become mired in a corporate ethos which doesn't recognise government restrictions and circumvents any attempt to curb its power or bring its perfidy to the attention of the general public.
The general public has been asked to make a major decision regarding the future of the UK on very little information and a great deal of misinformation - a chap was intereviewed on local news yesterday who voted Leave but has since changed his mind becaue he grew more aware of the wider issues at stake.
There's no shame in being ignorant of the matter but if you're willfully ignoring independent evidence of the great harm leaving the EU will bring upon this country then it would appear your prejudice and stupidity go hand-in-hand.

 

[Allsorts]

A quick use of the search function shows that you’ve applied negative characteristics to: “Leavers”, “most leavers” and “the vast majority of leavers”.

I don’t think I’m being pedantic. It isn’t just once, you (we?) do it often. Now it appears that you’re trying to deny it.

A search would also show - without question - that I have repeatedly made it clear it ain't all Leavers.

However, it is true that from my experience on this forum with the vast majority of Leavers on here - certainly all the hardened ones I refer to as the u-s - all the Leave folk I know in 'real life', audience participants on question panels, media reports (including 'social') etc that it is my belief that the vast majority of Leavers are driven by some degree of innate bigotry or worse. Call it what you will - jingoism, 'imperialism', whatevs.

Essentially, it is a population of folk who are genuinely hard done by, but whose (very basic human) instinct is to target the wrong cause. They do not blame the gov even tho' they are the ones with control and hence 'blame' over this, but instead target - as human beings have always done throughout their whole 'evolution' until enlightenment et al gave it a values-based kick up t'back side - the 'others'.

 

[Isitreally]

When some folk began targeting Polish people with abuse and physical intimidation days after the referendum result


And of course those news stories were only told in leftwing papers and tv news.

Maybe thats because it didn't happen anymore than it was before the ref, it just became news when it could show leavers to be bad people.

By the way abuse of anybody is unacceptable.

 

[Isitreally]

When some folk began targeting Polish people with abuse and physical intimidation days after the referendum result does indicate the level of intelligence of a certain section of society which the Brexit campaign targeted. "Stupid is as stupid does" is a homely adage that may be applied to this section of society; riddled with petty prejudice over 'damn forriners' - or anyone else who doesn't subscribe to their viewpoint.
(They're also the sort of folk who generally read The Sun/ Daily Star, watch soaps and reality tv shows, and will proudly refer to themselves as "real people". They're also quite likely to become confused between a paediatrician and a paedophile.)
This is not to infer everyone who voted for Brexit does any of those things or even consorts with the sub-section of society who has trouble holding a knife and fork.
They are, however, most likely to have suffered as a result of austerity and EU policies which have become mired in a corporate ethos which doesn't recognise government restrictions and circumvents any attempt to curb its power or bring its perfidy to the attention of the general public.
The general public has been asked to make a major decision regarding the future of the UK on very little information and a great deal of misinformation - a chap was intereviewed on local news yesterday who voted Leave but has since changed his mind becaue he grew more aware of the wider issues at stake.
There's no shame in being ignorant of the matter but if you're willfully ignoring independent evidence of the great harm leaving the EU will bring upon this country then it would appear your prejudice and stupidity go hand-in-hand.

Isn't this whole post exactly what btiw2 was on about.

 

[btiw2]

A search would also show - without question - that I have repeatedly made it clear it ain't all Leavers.

However, it is true that from my experience on this forum with the vast majority of Leavers on here - certainly all the hardened ones I refer to as the u-s - all the Leave folk I know in 'real life', audience participants on question panels, media reports (including 'social') etc that it is my belief that the vast majority of Leavers are driven by some degree of innate bigotry or worse. Call it what you will - jingoism, 'imperialism', whatevs.

Ahem.
“And some, I assume, are good people”?

Picture the scene; AS descends a golden escalator (not real gold, it’s goldenrod masonry paint), take his place at a podium and begins:

“When they vote, they’re not the best, they’re not you and me. They’re bigots. They’re ignorant. They’re racists. And some, I assume, are good people.”

Something like that?

AS, I’m no saint. I get picked up on my petty prejudices all the time. I find the best strategy is to apologise and re-evaluate my assumptions.

Let’s try it together. Repeat after me.

I’m sorry Willie. I have been lazy in my characterisation of millions people who simply chose to vote differently to me. I apologise for any offence I have caused you, and I will try to uphold higher standards in future discussions.

Although we should probably use smaller words, after all, leave voters are pretty thick*.

* kidding!

 

[Allsorts]

[QUOTE="btiw2,]Ahem.
“And some, I assume, are good people”?

Picture the scene; AS descends a golden escalator (not real gold, it’s goldenrod masonry paint), take his place at a podium and begins:

“When they vote, they’re not the best, they’re not you and me. They’re bigots. They’re ignorant. They’re racists. And some, I assume, are good people.” That's very clever - and good point well made. There are two basic sides here, tho', and it doesn't imply that both are equally wrong, or right; two sides can say the same 'stuff', and one of them might just be more right than the other. As, of course, I am...

Something like that?

AS, I’m no saint. I get picked up on my petty prejudices all the time. I find the best strategy is to apologise and re-evaluate my assumptions. Cool. So why refer to as 'poison' my "Reminds me of some on here" jibe on the 'racist attorney' thread when it's clear it should remind folk of Deleted member 11267, Filly et al - neither of whom you have taken to task for their 'indiscretions'? While you are at it, what was that crazy appeal to SFPete to impose a ban on 'trolling' when I made my obviously-daft thread about Banks? (You said at the time you knew little about him - are you more informed now? I hope so - because he was a main driver of the Leave campaign, and you really should know what he was up to.) I am not going to log off until you apologise.

Let’s try it together. Repeat after me.

I’m sorry Willie. I have been lazy in my characterisation of millions people who simply chose to vote differently to me. I apologise for any offence I have caused you, and I will try to uphold higher standards in future discussions.

Although we should probably use smaller words, after all, leave voters are pretty thick*.

* kidding![/QUOTE]

I’m sorry Willie. I have been lazy-tho'-I-have-genuine-reason-to-belive-accurate in my characterisation of millions people who simply chose to vote differently to me. I do sincerely apologise for any offence I have caused you and your good lady, and I will try to uphold higher standards in future discussions.

Btiw2, if I were a reasoned Leaver who had considered this matter using a range of sources and truly believed that this was the best move for my country, and my decision was not influenced at all by innate bigotry, racism xeno, jingo etc, like Mrs Willy (that sounds so wrong) then I am as certain as a certain thing that I would distance myself from Deleted member 11267, Filly, RS, 'arry, JJ and possibly a few others in my postings, and also - I would hope - challenge them on their more evasive and absurd comments and claims.

But they don't, not at all.

 

[joinerjohn1]

That's very clever - and good point well made. There are two basic sides here, tho', and it doesn't imply that both are equally wrong, or right; two sides can say the same 'stuff', and one of them might just be more right than the other. As, of course, I am...

Says it all DA.

 

[Hans_25]

I have assigned a characteristic to a specific group of Leavers - who happen to have that characteristic.

It doesn't apply to all Leavers on here, but to the specific group of leavers. You know this.

This is identity politics at its worst. Just stop it and treat people as individuals.

Just because person X (a "u-s") has view Y (voted leave) doesn't mean you can predict what other views they will hold. That is, as was mentioned above, prejudice. Pre-judging. And prejudging their character, its not helpful in the slightest.

And because they hold a certain view (voted leave, wants to see immigration better controlled) doesn't mean they're a bad person. If someone voted Tory doesn't make them a bad person either. Left or right politics, there's a place for both, we need both.

I disagree with some on this forum on some views, I hold different views, but so what. Take or criticize each issue on its individual merits/flaws. Criticise the issue, not the person.

Got it?

 

[Isitreally]

This is identity politics at its worst. Just stop it and treat people as individuals.

Just because person X (a "u-s") has view Y (voted leave) doesn't mean you can predict what other views they will hold. That is, as was mentioned above, prejudice. Pre-judging. And prejudging their character, its not helpful in the slightest.

And because they hold a certain view (voted leave, wants to see immigration better controlled) doesn't mean they're a bad person. If someone voted Tory doesn't make them a bad person either. Left or right politics, there's a place for both, we need both.

I disagree with some on this forum on some views, I hold different views, but so what. Take or criticize each issue on its individual merits/flaws. Criticise the issue, not the person.

Got it?

Our DA come AS does have a habit of doing exactly this by calling you a liar if you say you agree with him on a certain subject that he believes a leaver wouldn't.

According to him and other Remainers on here, if you voted leave you are the lowest of the low.

 

[btiw2]

Our DA come AS does have a habit of doing exactly this by calling you a liar if you say you agree with him on a certain subject that he believes a leaver wouldn't.

According to him and other Remainers on here, if you voted leave you are the lowest of the low.

That’s not fair. I had you down as the middle of the low.

I’d vote to join the PRC if it meant we could return to our reserved, sarcastic, polite, yet cynical national character.

I hate that people are getting this excited about politics. We’re not French.