How prepared are we for EVs

Discussion in 'Electricians' Talk' started by Comlec, Oct 23, 2021.

  1. quasar9

    quasar9 Screwfix Select

    To make hydrochloric acid you need a supply of chlorine. You can get that from the salt in sea, but you need electrical energy ( and lots of it) to extract the chlorine. You would also end up with a huge pile of sodium hydroxide as a by product.

    Sadly iron is never found in its native state and usually found as an oxide. Again you need shedloads of coke, lime etc to reduce this oxide into a metal. Steel plants are not exactly green !

    Then, after you have mixed iron with acid to produce your hydrogen, you will have huge piles of iron chloride for which you need even more energy to separate again !

    An easier way is to use wind/solar/tidal/hydro power to use water and separate the oxygen and hydrogen through electrolysis. The cycle can be repeated endlessly without piles of waste product.

    a cheaper and more “dirty” method of extracting hydrogen is stripping the carbon from methane leaving hydrogen to be used with a pile of carbon left behind (coal for all intents) Here we are reliant of a supply of methane.
  2. Jimbo

    Jimbo Screwfix Select

    Hydrogen is thought to be about twice as expensive per kWhr than electricity by 2050.
  3. quasar9

    quasar9 Screwfix Select

    The whole public planning philosophy is out of phase with widespread introduction of EV.

    It would need

    1. Whole scale reintroduction of very large public parking spaces where EV can be fast charged. Planners have been eagerly cutting back on these in the false philosophy of reducing car use. Sadly most of existing ones have been removed by local authorities.

    2. housing estates. Again planners have refused to approve plans which has even one car space per flat with none for visitors. This neeeds to be reversed immediately. For EVs parking is an opportunity to recharge.

    3. Ridiculous road schemes, supposedly introduced to discourage car use like low traffic neighbourhood, which add up to two extra miles, must be reversed. For an EV every mile is precious.

    The thinking , that somehow ownership of a vehicle is a crime against humanity must be reversed too. It I suspect for some people and political parties, even ownership of an EV is a criminal act that deserves meting out the harshest of punishment.
  4. MGW

    MGW Screwfix Select

    I have looked at life before motorised transport, one a horse produces far more CO2 than a car, it also produces other waste, which was a large problem in the likes of London, the railways allowed people to live outside the cities and commute to work, later came buses, and then the car, so my late sister travelled 50 miles a day each way to work. This is clearly a problem, but to reverse the advances we need an affordable public transport infrastructure.

    When Colvid19 arrived I also hit 70 years old, applied for licence in February finally got it in October, wife also found her licence had been revoked, she applied November and got the licence in September, so both of us had no licence, it said if valid application made one could drive, but until you get a reply i.e. ones licence you don't know if application is valid, so we both had no licences so had to try and do without a car.

    I live 8 miles from Welshpool, too far to walk, bus not safe with Colvid19, trains stopped running due to Colvid19, considered a tourist attraction even if locals use it for shopping, so I tried using an ebike.

    The range is enough to get to Welshpool and back, one has to pedal, not allowed to simply use motor any more, and it takes around 50 minutes each way to Welshpool and back. Newtown hills too steep, need to go vie Welshpool, plus the dangers of riding on a major road. And limit to shopping is what will fit in back pack.

    The train fitted partitions and arranged carriages in bubbles, so when it re-opened visitors could safely travel, but this did not happen with the buses, the train was disinfected after every trip, and you had to get on and off at one station only, so it was a train to no where, could not get off and on in Welshpool so was no longer usable as public transport.

    Taxi needs to travel 32 miles to take me 16 miles, 8 miles either way, so that's not a good idea, and a taxi is likely to be used in the cities 24/7 with maybe 4 different drivers, so refuelling time is important, so would need to swap batteries rather than charge in the vehicle.

    I know with fork lifts we swapped batteries, and charged in situ but the swapping of batteries was not easy, so tended to have more forklifts but with Milk floats only used 8 hours so batteries not changed.

    It seems Austria has tried the bus which can also run on rails, in the country it runs on tyres, and in the city on rails, once on rails using a pantograph becomes more viable, however we have seen the problems with trams, and trolley buses seemed to work better, there is no reason why a trolley bus system can't combine with EV as a hybrid so can charge when running in the city and use batteries in the country.

    However step one is public transport, re-open the railways, and make it so we don't need cars to get to work or shops, this has to come first, there is no point having large heavy vehicles to move personal. Yes to move goods, but people no, that ebike has a 12 Ah battery at 48 volt and a range of around 20 miles to 100 miles depending on how much pedalling is done.

    It is too slow I accept that, but step it up to motor bike size, with say a 1 kW motor, and larger battery say 50 Ah you can transport one person a reasonable distance and the battery is small enough to physically swap.

    The problem with the car is side impact bars, crumple zones etc. It means unlike the small motorbike which will weigh around 30 kg, the car weighs where a Nissan Leaf electric weighs 1580 kg and this is the problem, it's not the weight of what is being transported, it's the weight of unit light with no load.

    208 kg for the battery is too heavy to easy swap, my ebike weighs 24 kg total, and I can just about carry it up the steps, so battery weigh needs to be limited to around 20 kg so it can be carried or wheeled, so car also needs to be lighter so looking at around 1/10th of weight so 158 kg for the car. That's about 3 cwt in old money, the three wheel car had to be less than 7 cwt, so if battery in three sections you can get a 4 wheel car at around 8 cwt with three batteries each light enough to carry or wheel to charger.

    But one has to abandon the metal protective cage. We don't have one with a motorbike, so why is it needed with a car?
  5. Comlec

    Comlec Screwfix Select

    Well that was quick.
    Jimbo likes this.
  6. Wayners

    Wayners Screwfix Select

    I watched this. I want one but cost is too much for me.

  7. MGW

    MGW Screwfix Select

    I know where I work we are having some problems with the charging point. It is not run by the firm I work for, but does use their power, and they get money paid to them from the people who manage the charge point, I think a percent of money taken.

    However it gives the first 15 minutes free, I think idea is charge starts while you are using app to set up charge, however we have seen some abuse where people are unplugging and plugging back in every 15 minutes, which is clearly not what is expected, and is costing my firm money, and also meaning the charge point is no available for paying customers.

    There are only two charge points, and nothing else within many miles of that one, so get abuse and one the firm may decide to pull out as costing money to run it, and also people who want to use it can't because bay already in use.

    22 kW is not a bad rate, and 5.5 kW hour likely costs the firm less than £1 every time unplugged and plugged back in, but we are really short of parking spaces at special events, last one we had to turn cars away as run out of parking space, so not very good have two prime spaces taken up by people not spending any money, in fact removing money from the company.

    Yes we are a charity, but that means we want donations not we are giving money away. So we are unlikely to expend with more charging points even when we have the power spare in the building when it is being taken with nothing coming back, if the owner was buying from the firm it would be different, but sitting in their car supping tea out of a flask while using our power means we are re-thinking.

    If that is happening to us, it must be going on else where, so once firms find they are loosing money with charge points, they will stop putting them in.
    Wayners likes this.
  8. bright_Spark

    bright_Spark Screwfix Select

    Isnt that just typical of people, trying to get something for nothing regardless of the fact someone always ends up paying for their greed.
  9. Wayners

    Wayners Screwfix Select

    We Al freeload given the opportunity
  10. MGW

    MGW Screwfix Select

    Yes I am sure we do, but normally not from a charity.
  11. bright_Spark

    bright_Spark Screwfix Select

    From a charity ? Surely not.
  12. Jimbo

    Jimbo Screwfix Select

    Someone was using the local village hall to top up a PHEV whilst there for a regular community event. It certainly takes all types.
  13. longboat

    longboat Screwfix Select

    The only way I can see the EV becoming as accessible to to the masses (like ICE vehicles) is if the battery packs are standardised.
    They all use the same voltage and the connectors from battery to car are also the same.
    They could be produced in standard case sizes with outputs of 20kWh each, or whatever works best so that for example a Nissan leaf would use two packs and a tesla would use five.
    These could then be exchanged at a 'battery station' quickly as all mounting points and connectors are the same and either removed from the side of the vehicle or detached from below by a robot or site personnel.
    This would work for longer journeys just like a petrol station does now, but the pack's could also be charged from home/work/wherever if needed.
    The battery is only leased to the car owner when purchased from new so that the battery itself wouldn't be bought by a second owner when the car is sold on.
    How this would work in the real world I cannot say, but if it can't then the future of motoring for the masses is doomed. Only the well off will be able to afford a car, the rest will have to take the hydrogen powered bus or be on their bike with the whole family towed behind in a carriage.
    quasar9 likes this.
  14. quasar9

    quasar9 Screwfix Select

    agree, that would be a way forward but at the moment the the industry can’t even agree on the standards for cables and connectors to chargers or any form of standardised public chargers. I believe there are 4 types out there currently in UK. This needs a competent body reporting to the govt to set and enforce standards but if smart meter rollout is an indicator of such organisation, it will be a long time coming.

    With Renault Zoe, I believe the battery is rented.
  15. Jimbo

    Jimbo Screwfix Select

    Nio are following a battery swapping method: NIO | NIO Power

    OTOH charge times are increasingly rapidly - Hyundai's Iconiq 5 charges 70% in 18 minutes (210 miles worth). Still progress needed, but it's improving all the time.
  16. WillyEckerslike

    WillyEckerslike Screwfix Select

    Where do biofuels sit in the process? At least an ICE vehicle has standardised (worldwide) fuel storage and delivery systems. Have we abandoned alternative fuels to go in the vehicles we've already got?
  17. Jimbo

    Jimbo Screwfix Select

    Biofuels simply need too much land.
  18. quasar9

    quasar9 Screwfix Select

    Agree , it becomes a battle between land for food vs land for fuel ! Maybe just possible if people stopped eating meat as this firm of protein production is very inefficient.
  19. Lectrician

    Lectrician Screwfix Select

    We've had smart meters for a while. We then we had SMETS2 smart meters. There is now talks of a new smart meter.

    The new smart meter will connect a little more in depth with the installation, and be able to control electric heating (heat pumps), water heating and the car charger. If demand is great in the area, or power stations or international interconnects struggle, it will switch off loads in houses alternatively, giving every house the consumption it needs, but sharing the demand around. Your car will be ramped back or turned off, and then given a boost a little later.

    They talk of a "smart grid". Smart meters reporting back instantaneous consumption, not just of the whole site, but of different parts of it. There has long been the scare mongering of suppliers "turning you off". The intention is there, not to kill you entirely, but to limit your consumption when needed.

    Who knows how this will ever work. People will bypass the system to make sure their car charges in time for their 5am commute, or will bypass the interlock to make sure the house stays warm. We're used to seals on a meter, but how can they secure and patrol such integrated control? I'm not sure they can.
    stevie22 likes this.
  20. Ha ha. Someone else who's as sceptical as me that electric cars aren't going to reduce the carbon foot print

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