How to send data signal from master socket to extension socket?

Discussion in 'Electricians' Talk' started by simon77, Nov 2, 2018.

  1. simon77

    simon77 New Member

    Hi,

    We just had a Master Socket 5c MK 4 fitted (downstairs) and unknown to us at the time it has filtered out the data signal to the extension socket (upstairs), where the router was previously connected to and we would like to be connected again.

    On the master socket an orange and white wire plug into the A and B connections and a green and black wire go into the 2 and 5 connections (as shown in the photo below). I believe this green and black wire pair brings the phone signal to the extension socket (although am not entirely certain how it works as it must go back through the drop cable)? Note that all four wires mentioned come through the drop cable.

    IMG_20181102_093930.jpg

    I also read that the A and B connection on the back of the Master Socket 5c MK 4 faceplate is a data connection. As shown at the bottom of this pdf: https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/ho...wtoguides/downloads/NTE5C_Instructions_CP.pdf

    Is it possible to swap the green and black wires from 2 and 5 to the A and B connections on the back of the faceplate and send data to the extension socket instead?
    (This website seems to be talking about using the data signal from those connections: htps://www.telecomgreen.co.uk/engineering/move-bt-master-socket-without-actually-moving-advice-telephone-engineer/)

    Note that it's fine if the phone signal doesn't work in the extension socket, but would like a data signal for the broadband.

    If it is applicable, the upstairs extension socket has older wiring, which I believe is as listed below:

    Pin 2 is A (blue)
    Pin 5 is B (orange)

    Pin 3 is Bell wire (green)
    Pin 4 is Earth wire (brown)

    If moving the green and black wires in the master socket to the data connection on the back of the faceplate will carry the data signal to the extension will the extension socket need to be updated to a new one with a separate data socket? Or will the existing extension socket work, with or without a micro filter connecting to it?

    Thanks a lot for your help.
    Simon
     
  2. Hans_25

    Hans_25 Member

  3. simon77

    simon77 New Member

    Would I just move the green and black wires from the 2 and 5 connections to the A and B connections like I mentioned then?

    And I guess installing another master socket upstairs would make things simpler. Do you know if it might work without though? Or would the extension faceplate need to have both phone and data inputs (as opposed to just the phone input that the faceplate currently has)?

    Thanks.
     
  4. Hans_25

    Hans_25 Member

    Or could watch this which explains how to add a slave socket, connects 2 to 2 and 5 to 5 I think, but watch the video. Filtering is done beyond the socket usually via filter, but you can get a master socket faceplate with two outlets (as in the first link) for phone and broadband - the phone socket is already filtered.

     
  5. spirits are real 2016

    spirits are real 2016 Active Member

    green and black must go to A and B there from the bt exchange that's all you need to have connected from the bt line your extension cable only needs two cores from master to extension socket in number 2 and 5 only when they designed the new socket they made so no more filters would be needed on the extension sockets but in doing so it now restricts the data to master only as you've found out.
     
  6. simon77

    simon77 New Member

    Sorry, I'm not sure I understand your post. Orange and white are the wires that go to A and B from the BT exchange. Green and black are for the extension socket. Green and black are currently going to 2 and 5 on the master socket. But there's another A and B connection on the back of the master socket faceplate which according to the link below is for data:
    https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/ho...wtoguides/downloads/NTE5C_Instructions_CP.pdf

    So I wandered whether I could swap the green and black wires from 2 and 5 on the master socket to the A and B connection on the back of the master socket faceplate to send data to the extension socket?
     
  7. simon77

    simon77 New Member

    Thanks, I'll have a watch in a bit when I can.

    In regards to the first link, I think that's what I'm hoping to do. Just wasn't entirely sure if I could do it the way that I've mentioned or not as I'm not certain.

    Cheers.
     
  8. spirits are real 2016

    spirits are real 2016 Active Member

    sorry I'm old school ignore what i said sorry.
     
  9. Hans_25

    Hans_25 Member

    I think the gist of the above links is:
    - you can add another master socket, by connecting/extending the incoming A and B to the additional master socket A and B
    - or you add a slave by connecting/extending the 2/5 to the slave 2/5.

    In both cases, I believe the signal is unfiltered.
     
  10. EZ Tutty

    EZ Tutty New Member

    Move the wires from 2 & 5 on the NTE5C to A & B on the back of the mk4 filtered faceplate as you said in your original post.

    This will make it purely a data connection, with no voice capability.
    For the extension you ideally want a RJ45/RJ11 Data Slave Socket, but you can use a standard BT slave, No micro filters required at all.

    If you use existing BT slave socket, connect to 2 & 5 (how it should be now anyway)
    if you change to an RJ11/RJ45 data socket, then use terminals 3 & 4.

    Polarity isn't important for ADSL/VDSL data connections.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2018
  11. EZ Tutty

    EZ Tutty New Member

    ... Also if you have enough wires in the cable (4 wires / 2 pairs) you can run a duel phone data slave socket and use connections 2 & 5 for the phone and A and B for the Internet
     
  12. simon77

    simon77 New Member

    Hi,

    I just tried swapping the green and black wires from 2 and 5 to the A and B on the back of the faceplate and it hasn't worked.

    Before I did this I tried a phone in the extension socket and it worked. Took out the green and black wire and the extension phone no longer had a dial tone, so it must be connected.

    I tried putting the green in A and black in B, and when that didn't work I swapped them round.

    I tried it with and without a microfilter (tried a couple of different microfilters and leads as well to make sure they weren't faulty).

    The extension is a standard phone socket.

    In the extension socket I mistakenly thought the brown wire was going to Pin 4, when it's going to pin 6. But that shouldn't matter if Pin 2 and Pin 5 are correctly connected and I imagine they must be if the phone was working?

    Pin 2 is A (blue)
    Pin 5 is B (orange)

    Pin 3 is Bell wire? (green)
    Pin 6 not used? (brown)

    IMG_20181103_143216 smaller.jpg IMG_20181103_143220 smaller.jpg

    Any ideas?

    Thanks for the help.
     
  13. EZ Tutty

    EZ Tutty New Member

    Is there another junction/connection somewhere as you have Blue & Orange in 2 & 5?

    I take it you have a BT Plug to RJ11 cable to feed the router? as this isn't something seen very often.
     
  14. Allsorts

    Allsorts Well-Known Member

    Hi Simon.

    I fitted one of these sockets with the built-in ADSL filter as I thought it would (a) allow me to dispense with the plug-in filters in all the extensions and (b) continue to send the now-'filtered' ADSL signal down the extension lines to allow me to plug my modem in to any extension as before.

    I was wrong on the second point...

    I don't know if yours is different to mine, but mine does NOT send the filtered ADSL signal down the extension lines any more but instead provides it ONLY on the 'ethernet' socket on the front of this faceplate; that's where I now had to plug in my modem.

    (As I hate 'wireless', I ran two Cat6 cables to faceplates in the two rooms I needed reliable BB, one for the TV and one for the PC. So I had to fit a double 'Ethernet' faceplate beside my new 'filtered' master socket.)

    I don't know if yours - being a Mk4 - has improved on mine in that respect. There's something in this that might suggest it has: https://www.run-it-direct.co.uk/adsl-vdsl-faceplates/mk4btopenreachvdslsocket/ It says this: "Centralised VDSL & ADSL filtering is then provided negating the need for plug in microfilters with an RJ45/RJ11 socket providing the connection for a modem/router & a filtered telephone socket for telephones etc. Alternatively, provision is made for a hard wired connection to the modem/router via a two way cam lock tool-less IDC connector on the rear (circled below)."

    Perhaps that means you could employ these two hard wires down your extension cable to a chosen extension socket and use them for your modem? You'd need to ensure that you only used 2 wires in the extension cable, and that these go to the correct 'phone' terminals in that extension socket as before (2 & 5?). Ie, this chosen extension cable would now be sending only this filtered ADSL signal down it and not the phone signal; you'd choose an extension to use solely for the modem.

    This is pure guesswork in case you're wondering...

    This needs more reading.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2018
    simon77 likes this.
  15. EZ Tutty

    EZ Tutty New Member

    A new style NTE5C Master Socket will allow for Data Extensions to be hard wired when fitted with a MK4 Filtered Faceplate, by using terminals A & B on the rear of the faceplate it's self.

    From memory I think the Mk2 & 3 faceplates can also supply data extensions, but the original Mk1 and the old NTE2000 cannot.

    and yes you need to choose a dedicated extension for the Modem.

     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2018
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  16. simon77

    simon77 New Member

    Hi,

    Yep, I do have a BT plug to RJ11 cable. That's what I was using for the modem when it worked previously (prior to the new filtered master socket being installed downstairs).

    The master socket and upstairs extension both feed outside (I'm guessing to a junction, although haven't actually looked!). But it does seem that the green and black wire from the drop cable feed out to the junction and then back into the extension via a blue and orange wire.

    It worked previous to the Master Socket being changed, sending the phone/data signal along those wires to the extension, and it sends the phone signal now from the 2&5 connection on the Master Socket 5c. Just doesn't send the signal when attached to the data connection on the MK4 faceplate.

    I checked the voltage on the wires when connected to the data connection on the MK4 faceplate and it fluctuates up and down around 20V (whereas the 2&5 connection on the Master Socket 5c is constant at 50.8V). So think the MK4 faceplate connection might actually be broken?!

    Cheers.
     
  17. Allsorts

    Allsorts Well-Known Member

    EZ Tutty seems to confirm what I'd hoped.

    Simon, when you use one of these ADSL filtered faceplates - like yours - all the telephone extension cables connected to it will continue to provide your wired extensions for telephones with the added advantage that you will no longer need to plug in external filters as you used to.

    So, provided you plug your modem in to this main faceplate, everything else remains as before - all your extensions still operate as telephone extensions.

    BUT, you can no longer use your extensions as 'modem' extensions; you MUST plug the modem in to this main faceplate.

    EXCEPT if you now wire a chosen extension slightly differently; instead of this extension's wiring (the whites and blues) being to 2&5 behind the faceplate as before, you will - instead - have to wire the blue/whites for this 'modem' extension to the extra terminals on the back of the faceplate (terminals A&B according to EZ).

    Does that make sense? The chosen extension will now receive a filtered ADSL signal, but no longer a 'telephone' one.

    (That's if I've understood EZ correctly. If I'm wrong, it's EZ's fault... :rolleyes:)
     
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  18. HarDeBloodyHarHar

    HarDeBloodyHarHar Active Member

    Surely it's a case to connect the phone cable only(from inside the box) to the extension. If the phone line has the internet then that will go with the extension and normal rules apply?
     
    simon77 likes this.
  19. simon77

    simon77 New Member

    Hey,

    Yep, that's what I've been trying to do. Although my blue and white wires are black and green.

    Putting them in the A&B in the back of the faceplate. The router doesn't work in the extension though (and the voltage it receives fluctuates wildly around 20V). However, when the black and green wires are plugged into 2&5 on the Master the phone in the extension works (and the voltage is constant at 50.8V). Not sure why.

    Thanks for helping though. I think I might try testing out the A&B on the faceplate to make sure they're working, or try running new cable.
     
    Allsorts likes this.
  20. Allsorts

    Allsorts Well-Known Member

    I've reached the extent of my guesswork, I'm afraid.

    I don't suppose the black and green wires are polarised - have you tried swapping them?
     

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