Insignia Premium Black Frame Quadrant Steam Shower Cabin

Discussion in 'Electricians' Talk' started by Jiten, Aug 23, 2019.

  1. Jiten

    Jiten Member

    morning guys

    just wanted an outlook on what you guys thought of the electrical install on this unit.

    https://images.victorianplumbing.co.uk/images/pdf/PL9-QBF-TG-S-1.pdf

    on page 5 it states:

    This product comes with 13 amp plug(s) fitted with an RCD unit. We leave it this way for you to connect it your own way due to continued additions to current regulations.
    1) Connect within current laws and IP directives.
    2) (Preferred) Wire into isolated fused feed connecting directly to the house consumer/service box.
    Always use protection against electrical surge. Your shower should be treated the same as a home computer. A surge protector should eradicate the possibility of either the transformer or control panel being burnt out.

    my thought on this was to simply get an RCD fused spur coming from the ring main. the location of the spur will be in the kitchen above the shower room. this will eliminate IP and regs and electrical points in the shower room. as the power rating is 2.8 kw i didn't see the reason of running a cable from the consumer unit to the shower, this is why i wanted to ask what you guys think, or has anyone fitted a similar unit ?

    thank you in advance
     
  2. Tony Goddard

    Tony Goddard Screwfix Select

    Is your ring main not RCD protected already?, if it is then there is no problem simply wiring this to a fused spur as the RCD protection will be taken care of. RCD spurs are somewhat controversial at the moment in that they are not built to the same British Standard as consumer unit RCD's, some would have no problem with them, others would. Personally I prefer to ensure the whole supply circuit is compliant.
    It is best to have the actual fused spur unit outside the shower room on the same level, ie outside the door to the room, for ease of identification in the future.
    Being that this is defined as a special location, it is notifiable under part P of the building regs. You can do this yourself via the LABC office or get an electrician to test/certify your work for you after completion. There is always a debate as to whether DIYer's should be bothering or not notifying, and I try not to get too involved in the rights and wrongs there - however my only note is on house conveyancing forms there are now boxes you have to fill in declaring electrical works and providing certificates, a small saving now could result in a buyer knocking a few grand off the house price later.
     
  3. Bazza

    Bazza Screwfix Select

    Yes this is notifiable work but the process doesn’t work as Tony described.
    If you DIY it, you’ll need to raise a building notice with your LABC before you start work. They’ll charge you £200+ for the pleasure. And will want to inspect your work at various stages. They’ll expect you to test and certify it all in accordance with BS7671. Got a set of calibrated test equipment?

    You need a registered electrician to do the work and carry out the certification and notification (only a few £ for the notification if you take this route).
    Registered electricians are only permitted to do this for work they have carried out themselves. Not after you’ve done it.
     
  4. Tony Goddard

    Tony Goddard Screwfix Select

    Bazza is quite correct, you should make contact with LABC before the work commences. As registered electricians we are alowed to certify others work and have been since 2013, but again you would need to agree that with the electrician, and agree that they are happy before you commence work.

    This flier from the NICEIC explains everything pretty well

    https://www.niceic.com/Niceic.com/media/Schemes/NICEIC-Part-P-Updated-Factsheet.pdf
     
  5. Bazza

    Bazza Screwfix Select

    Note the key part is regarding "signing off" other's work.
    Under the new regulations those carrying out the work but who are not registered with a
    competent persons' scheme will have to get the work signed off by a registered third party.
    This potentially could create a new stream of work for registered electricians. However, nonregistered
    electricians must continue to notify their work to the LABC prior to commencement
    until such time as the ‘third party certification’ scheme has been defined and in operation.

    Since the time of the change, a number of the schemes did not persue the "third party" route, and those that did had very few electricians signing up to be able to offer this option. Even IF the OP can find an electrician who is able to do this (good luck with that) the electrician will need to be involved right from the start.
    You can't do the work and then find someone to "sign it off". That's a bit like buying a gas boiler from B&Q, installing it and then expecting that a GasSafe plumber will certify it.
     
  6. ajohn

    ajohn Screwfix Select

    That specifies a zone as a special location not the room.

    What a spark may do if no main rcd protection in the CU is fit an rcd connection unit and an ordinary connection unit. If there is an rcd already just the connection unit which can't be in the zone mentioned so notification sort of means it wouldn't get done if it needs to be in it. Only SELV stuff such as a fan can be used there. Building regs can be interpreted as meaning one that runs all of the time at a very low rate and boosts to usual levels when needed. It fits in with modern builds that provide very little ventilation without it.

    Suppose the shower cubical is in the zone but that really isn't what the regs are concerned about other wise no one could fit it as it has 230v going to it. Makers responsibility and probably why it comes with an rcd. Might even be a 10ma one.

    If this is run off a new feed from the CU it becomes notifiable. If a spur it isn't but a spark has to provide a minor work certificate. The feasibility of a spur depends on the rings current loading - bit of a woolly area when it has sockets on it. The get out in that area is the 30/32amp rating.

    The regs/guides can be interpreted as must have surge protection or even that a spark should judge the value of the equipment that is connected. In practice anything that is plugged into the mains that really needs it such as PC's etc is very likely to have it built in. Can means that the needn't but if some one was having a cu upgrade etc it's sensible to fit one. They seem to be aimed at rather major surges. We used to get those around where I live. One made an amazing mess of a dimmer in our lounge and took out several bulbs. It part came off the wall. TV on and still ok. My PC would have been on too.

    VictoriaPlumb say exactly the same thing about a number of items they sell. The load is always at the limit of what is fairly sensible for a plug and socket so on the face of it could just be plugged in. Some items also mention isolating the water supply when not in use. Covers them for if a leak does occur. Also that some thermostatic shower units needing a pressure equalising valve.

    John
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    Last edited: Aug 24, 2019
  7. Tony Goddard

    Tony Goddard Screwfix Select

    Bazza, Indeed, if the OP is going that route he will need to first find an electrician who is willing and then agree the work to be done, materials to be used etc. I get all my notifications done by a mate, being mainly commercial it only ends up being a dozen or so a year and I send a lot of domestic work his way, of course I fill in all the EIC's, provide test results from calibrated instruments etc.. it's not uncommon within the trade but may be difficult to find someone willing to do it for someone they don't know as there will be little in it financially for them and a risk of future comeback.
    I have found LABC easy to work with, but again as a qualified electrician who can show them credentials they are more at ease dealing with me than Joe Diyer, but as you rightly say they must be in the loop for the start, no good expecting them to be helpful later on.
    The OPs work is so very minor that the LABC route will cost most likely more than the work, so I would just get a spark in to do the job!
     
  8. Tony Goddard

    Tony Goddard Screwfix Select

    Hi John
    This is from the NICEICs latest publication on electrical work in bathrooms

    If you are carrying out work in the bathroom that requires any addition or alteration to existing circuits then the work could be notifiable to your local building control department to ensure it meets the correct safety standards.

    Generally, any work carried out to the circuit within a specific zone close to the bath or shower unit is considered notifiable.

    I would agree that it might be possible to, for example run the cable from under the shower unit, where it falls outside the zones, through the wall to say the bedroom, at which point the work, adding a spur to a ring (assuming the ring is RCD protected) then is a minor work that falls outside of notification.

    However, as it's running a shower I would be very keen to know that the RCD was working in spec, the earth loop was good and everything else (polarity/insulation) was as it should be.

    I'm not a big fan of the RCD spur plate, as a pop-out breaker they can gunge up and stick, seen that happen. They are better than nothing, say for a socket for a mower, but for protecting a shower, where if all went pear shaped you want fast, reliable operation, personally I would want an RCD in the CU or thereabouts.
     
  9. ajohn

    ajohn Screwfix Select

    The way that has worked before that note cropped up was - speak to spark - do what they suggest - do the donkey work - spark connects up and tests. Actually I would have thought a number of sane sparks would work like that however there are a lot lot more of them about now.

    John
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  10. Tony Goddard

    Tony Goddard Screwfix Select

    I agree with that John, only problem here is it such a small bit of work that the spark may as well do it when they are there, the OP could run the cables to the right locations, as you say, doing the donkey work and making good at the end. Speaking to the spark ahead of time is vital, they can also advise as to the RCD situation.
     
  11. ajohn

    ajohn Screwfix Select

    They use the word "could" Tony. What they should really do is stop making comments like that and get the actual regs sorted out. The IET are nearly as bad at times. That comment I made about surge arrestors is a brilliant one - first line says shall be fitted later maybe not.

    I would have thought one of those combined rcd plus main isolator little cu's in a sensible place would be the simplest answer for older cu's. I assume that is what they are for.

    It's all an interesting area even this - new circuits. First question is space in the CU. I have talked to one spark. He would intend to fit just what we currently need and leave no space for anything else. :) Mind you when I tell him what I want he may make the sign of the cross and walk away.

    John
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  12. gas monkey

    gas monkey Well-Known Member

    if you know what your doing ok no need for a bit of paper
    use it when come s
    to sell take it out you have had the enjoyment of it
     
  13. Bazza

    Bazza Screwfix Select

    @ajohn have you looked at what this device is? what do you mean "suppose the cubical is in the zone"? This device creates a zone. All of them, in fact!
     
  14. ajohn

    ajohn Screwfix Select

    Electrics usually means floorboards etc up, channelling, back box holes, replastering, tidying up and fitting what ever which can be left hanging out. That lot can take several hours in total even on simple jobs. It leaves a short job that a spark can use to fill in a day. I had a spark do some work in the meter cabinet That was a fill in job. He told me it would be done towards the end of next week and he would let me know precisely when later a few days before. ;) He was an hour late. Took a little longer than expected and wheedled another £10 off me which actually I thought was fair enough. He reckoned he wouldn't have quoted what he actually did.

    John
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  15. ajohn

    ajohn Screwfix Select

    Yes that is why I said suppose - just pointing out that it has 230v going to it as do electric showers. Clearly the installation creates a zone and once it has certain things can't go in it. Anything put in that zone seems to be notifiable, fitting the unit that creates the zone doesn't appear to be. I'd imagine that the makers wouldn't be happy if it was.

    John
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  16. Tony Goddard

    Tony Goddard Screwfix Select

    Technically the void behind the shower is outside of the zones if not accesible without the use of a tool. If the appliance comes with a long enough flex, that could run through the wall into an FCU in the next room, therefore on a technicality avoiding the need to notify.
     
  17. Jiten

    Jiten Member

    Thank you all for giving your input, it's extremely helpful and appreciated.

    I did assume as it's going to be a spur from the ring main it would only require a minor works. There are floor boards and beneath the floorboards in a store room, this is where the fuse spur would be installed. Reason being is, it's a short run and out of the zones in special locations.

    The ring main in the house is also RCD protected.
     

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