Is it me?...

Discussion in 'Kitchen Fitters' Talk' started by PhantomF4, Sep 16, 2019.

?

Is this how you'd fix these base cabinets?

Poll closed Sep 30, 2019.
  1. Yes

    40.0%
  2. No, via the fixing access holes.

    60.0%
  1. PhantomF4

    PhantomF4 New Member

    Well, I've just had a major company fit a new kitchen for me (for the wife really, I was happy with the 35 year old, solid oak MFI one...) I must say, too, I've had years of experience plumbing on new build sites, Retired now) and have seen almost all the pitfalls, and I've seen some really admirable kitchen fitters who worked really rapidly and well. (the vast majority are good, whatever the television programmes would lead you to believe...)

    I've had a number of issues with ours, though, some major, some minor, but some of the reasons for performing as they did were just bl**dy stupid, and it was all I could do to stop myself from yelling at them. What do you guys think... Look at this pic, first...
    upload_2019-9-16_8-42-56.jpeg
    That cabinet/wall fixing is convenient to access during installation, but later, if you want to extract a single unit from a range? impossible, without doing damage. I discussed it with the fitter, explaining to him why the holes 2" below his fixings, are machined in the cabinet backs, and why they were supplied with plastic plugs. It's to drill and fix through, Einstein... He came to understand, but wouldn't alter them. I altered all the fixings overnight in his absence. He wasn't happy...
    Now, with some easily predictable problems arising (a carcass was butchered and has to be replaced, therefore extracted...) I've had words with the installation manager-
    Me-"Why don't you use the access holes to fix through?"
    IM- "we never have, we always fix that way"
    Me- "But you can't easily extract a single carcass from a range if you have an issue..."
    IM- "Yes you can!"
    Me- "how do you do that?"
    IM- "We break the carcass back and undo the screws...)
    Me- "So you have then got to repair the carcass?"
    IM- "Yes"
    Me- "Does that make sense?"
    IM- "It's the way we do it..."
    Me- "But using the holes provided, you needn't do any damage"
    IM- "If we used those, we'd need to have long drill bits"
    Me- "Yes, that's what I used..."
    IM- "Well, we don't have them" (Erbauer 5.5mm x 160 bits are £1.99, and perform well enough for domestic in block and brick...)
    Anyway, the butchered carcass is in a corner, it's the largest, most expensive carcass in the run, and it's beneath a solid surface worktop weighing 280kg. In my day, I'd have undone the wall fixings easily, removed the screws from carcass to carcass, and pulled the offending unit with no damage done. A bit of CLS and a wedge would support the worktop temporarily, (or my spare breakfast bar leg, adjustable...) then the cabinets would be reinstated. No big deal. Their way, had the fixings been left as they were, at least one other unit would have had to be damaged (we break the backs...)

    "It's the way we always do it" Is a sentence that drives me crazy, unless appended with something like "it's the best we've come up with to date, but we're always thinking of ways to improve..."
    What do you guys think?
     
  2. furious_customer

    furious_customer Screwfix Select

    I think the problem is that you are expecting a business to do as good a job as you would do.

    They can't - they are a business and need to make money, so they will work to the minimum level of quality required for you to agree to pay the bill. After all you won't pay them any more if they do a really good job - you would still just pay the agreed price.

    The best businesses are the ones that make the most amount of money with the time and resources available.
    The best kitchens are fitted by people who have the time and passion to do a good job.

    You have a conflict between the two.

    If you threaten not to pay then I suspect that they will change anything you ask them to.
     
  3. PhantomF4

    PhantomF4 New Member

    That's a really good answer, and I'm guessing you're taking the management viewpoint (which you perhaps must) In fact, I had these guys do our kitchen because my neighbour had them. He paid less than half the installation costs I did, but despite my quote being much more (there were some good reasons explaining part of the difference) I accepted it, having seen the work done at my neighbour's house. I got a different fitter, on his first task with the company. You are correct, though, I've paid the bulk, and have got them to agree to changing the damaged cabinet, plus a huge worktop. For various reasons, I can't have them back until Christmas school holidays, and really don't ever want to see them again. I'm just using forums (fora?) like these as therapy. Some responses are far more amusing than yours...
    Before becoming a plumber, I was in engineering, including aerospace. I wrapped pipework round jet engines, for instance. I can't understand why plumbers struggle bending tube. I always found it best to do it right first time, since remedial work costs so much more time, money, and knock on effects upon subsequent tasks. I've performed exactly as customers asked on a number of occasions, and got them to sign that I'd done as requested. It's always cost them time, money, production, embarrassment, whereas two of my bosses have said thirty years apart, and in different industries "You may take a little longer, but we know when you're finished, it's finished" which is why I was the poor bugger who picked up others' sh**t. It's also why I never got sent back to do remedial when I'd performed exactly as the customer or my boss asked... Once that was UKEA, the atomic energy people. My boss insisted I did a job in a way that didn't meet spec, because they'd never notice... They did, of course, and my mate was sent to do the remedial work, which was a 400 mile return trip to Windscale/Sellafield, plus getting into and working at these plants isn't as easy as working in the factory... You only get one chance to get it right first time...
     
  4. Hans_25

    Hans_25 Screwfix Select

    I think FC said it well...most trades simply do a job "good enough" to get paid i.e. they fitted a kitchen.

    If you want a job doing properly, do it yourself! My local kitchen place challenged my abilities to fit one of their kitchens because it has some tricky handless cabinets ("urban" style units). Well, if a professional can fit it, should be easy for an amateur lol
     
  5. JustPhil

    JustPhil Active Member

    I think the point phantomF4 is making is that with a little extra cost/care up front (a cheap drill bit in this case) the firm could save themselves in the long run because remediation works are easier. It’s a bit like the smart plumber who fits extra isolation valves to make fixes in future easier - care taken up front usually pays later.
    Sounds like you’ve got an experienced production mindset where you think this way. Problem with the kitchen fitters in this case is they’re thinking about short term gains and not the long win.
     
  6. PhantomF4

    PhantomF4 New Member

    I had to Google "handleless" to find out... You mean just like the first kitchen I installed in my first house in 1978... the doors had a solid afromosia moulding top and bottom, with a finger groove. OK on wall cabinets, but a crumb trap on bases...
    The pragmatism exhibited on these sites amazes me. People just say it's the way it is... I just posted a pic of an item that irritated me, but, unless I had to pull a cabinet (something I've had to do many times in the past on domestic new build) it wouldn't have been an issue... This is the first time I've ever had someone fit a kitchen for me, and It's disappointing to find people think nothing of scribing a corner unit 1.5" short, leaving a void, and then expecting to get away with covering up by boxing in a cockup with melamine faced hardboard, despite my pointing out we had a surplus carcass on site that he could modify. It would have cost 25% of the little capacity of the cabinet had left after it had been scribed round the soil pipe boxing... He wouldn't, so I spent a couple of hours over the weekend doing what he ought to have. No big job, but not mine, I paid to have it done... (or may do...)
     
  7. Hans_25

    Hans_25 Screwfix Select

    Not a "J" handle which is a finger groove in the door itself, but more like this. At my kitchen place there's a continuous aluminum section that runs along the complete run of cabinets, so that may be a bit tricky for some. We have them at work (its a German company), no sign of dirt getting trapped.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. PhantomF4

    PhantomF4 New Member

    You got it spot on, Phil, in every instance, The plumbing analogy was good too, since, when I retrained as a plumber after 30 years in various engineering disciplines, I kept finding the remedial work I had to do (on others' work) was often made unnecessarily difficult by thoughtlessness. Failed immersion heaters that couldn't be removed easily because of the cylinder's orientation, or unvented cylinders that had been caged in by pipework, necessitating cutting pipes to get them out. It's quick and dirty, but stupid. (unless you're sure you'll be off site before the ordure hits the turbine...) My gas ticket ran out so I got a guy I've known for years to fit a boiler. He installed a bypass where it can't easily be reached to adjust, repair or replace, hemmed in by pipes. I know where the replacement will be installed if ever... And the way his apprentice cut my roofing felt for the flue... There's seldom any extra cost in doing things properly, (once you've developed a routine/SOP) you're just obliged to think a bit more, and ideally speak to others, swapping notes.
     
  9. PhantomF4

    PhantomF4 New Member

    (its a German company)
    Says it all, really. I've worked with Germans in the automotive industry and print engineering, lifting equipment and plastics, and hold all of those I've worked with in the utmost respect. Apart from those quirks they have, like drinking beer at tea breaks, and tying a bit of tree to a completed installation...(and they'll go out of their way to find a tree...) They just get it done. My favourite comedian is Henning Wenn. He said "In the UK you swear a lot. In Germany, we swear, too, but there's less need, everything just works..." He also said "In Germany, we like a laugh and a joke at the end of a working day. Here in the UK, you like a laugh and a joke instead of doing any meaningful work..." When I did some work at Jaguar, Karmann, a German company were there, too. I was struggling, my mate had gone off to the toilet (again) but a Karmann guy stepped up, did what was necessary and went off with a thumbs up, not a word spoken, not a second wasted. The Brummies hadn't considered stopping, if they'd even noticed I was struggling. Henning gets away with it, because many of us are in denial about the situation. An East German once said to me "Why would I do it badly? with a puzzled look. Doing stuff badly would have been anathema to him. Second nature to (too) many of us...
     
    Hans_25 likes this.
  10. Heat

    Heat Screwfix Select

    I bet they made a mess of the plumbing and did it in a stupid way.
    Only way to do things right is do all the stuff that you are highly proficient in doing yourself.
     
  11. PhantomF4

    PhantomF4 New Member

    Yes, he did a **** passover bend, H&C in contact with each other, and solder snots trapping a compression nut on a full bore 1/4 turn valve I'd given him to install. I hate heat being applied to valves. I hate it with a passion. I wouldn't let him touch my mixer tap. I could picture him applying grips to a beautifully polished surface and not actually noticing the marks...
     
  12. Heat

    Heat Screwfix Select

    I virtually never solder anywhere near valves. If possible I solder out of position and install the finished soldered pipework later.
    Very few real professionals in U.K. as you say.
    I agree with the point about why would you do a job wrongly when you can do it properly.
    Usually the bathroom and kitchen plumbing workers are not plumbers and norm is push fit.
    My all copper work gets comments from kitchen fitters, as they are only used to seeing shoddy work
     
  13. PhantomF4

    PhantomF4 New Member

    A kindred spirit! I used to make up sub assemblies outside of sink units (I got too old to be down on my knees for any length of time) On new build, the thin slips that came in packs of Thermalite blocks were handy to solder on...
     
  14. barbaricduck

    barbaricduck Active Member

    It is rare for a single base cab to ever need to be removed and then refitted. I deal with not only kitchen installs but also a fair bit of maintenance for lots of landlords and I can't recall ever having to temporarily remove a base cab. I am also a napit spark, and again, I have never had to remove a cab to route cables etc. I don't see a major issue here, unless there is a good reason as to why one particular cabinet may need access in the future, and if that was the case then it could be factored in during the installation.

    And just to add, a lot of the kitchen base cabs come with right angle brackets for the very purpose as per the photo. I do see your point, but don't see it as being a major issue. :)
     
    longboat likes this.
  15. Heat

    Heat Screwfix Select

    Am old school just like you. Whatever is the best materials and methods is what I prefer to use.
    I use machine bends on most pipework where it is suitable and all solder joints. I use the mild fluxes (Yorkshire or Fluxite ‘grease’ based) so no damage to internal of copper pipes.
    No plastic push fit.
    Also don’t use cheap ballofix valves or gate valves now. All full flow iso valves or lever valves, except stopcock on mains
     
  16. longboat

    longboat Screwfix Select

    What do you do when you've got to fit a shower pump?
    Flexis, with push fit connectors... :confused:
    It must be hell!
    :)
     
    Heat likes this.
  17. Heat

    Heat Screwfix Select

    Lol! That is one example where I have to use flexis, - and even worse that they are push fit.
    But at least there are good reasons the pump manufacturer uses flexis - to avoid noise transmission and allow some flex in the connections between a vibrating pump and fixed pipes.
    All nice offset copper pipes though used to couple up to.
    The pumps won’t last long enough for their flexis to fail hopefully. :)
     
    longboat likes this.
  18. longboat

    longboat Screwfix Select

    I can understand the logic behind fitting the brackets a bit further down the carcass so screw is accessible once the tops are fitted, but...
    A: it is extremely unlikely that a single base unit will ever need to be removed (without damage) and replaced.
    B: The hole in the cabinet back is probably not intended to be used for such.
    To make the production process more efficient, all cabinet backs - be they wall or base - will have this hole drilled to allow adjustment for concealed cabinet brackets.

    Perhaps they were made in Germany.
     
  19. PhantomF4

    PhantomF4 New Member

    Funnily, I had to remove units in many flats in a supposedly prestigious development of 135 flats, with weeks of remedial because the "plumbers" weren't... And, on some sites, fitting garden taps as an afterthought, post occupancy, and where the customer wanted it in a location other than straight outside the sink unit, it was necessary to pull units. (or run external pipework) I had to pull a unit from the old kitchen to gain access to the soil stack for my new boiler's condensate. In my particular situation, the biggest most expensive unit had a lump hacked out of it unnecessarily, and given I'm paying for it, I want all of it present, not an entry point for pests. I don't care if it can't be seen. There'll be a need to pull two units. Break the backs indeed... The picture only illustrated a minor irritation, and poor thinking. there were so many things... Those brackets were supplied as far back as the seventies, to my knowledge...
    B: The hole in the cabinet back is probably not intended to be used for such...
    Well, on page 18 of the manufacturer's (Benchmarx) instructions, http://travisperkins.scene7.com/is/... Guides/Section 4 - Installation Sequence.pdf it says that's precisely what they're there for. I admit I hadn't delved until you made that suggestion, but it seemed such a ridiculous suggestion I became much more determined to prove my point. Don't feel too bad, the installation manager hadn't a clue, and he, you might have expected, to know... But he didn't, and he said "we always do it (the other way)" He was defending the indefensible, or was as clueless as the fitters. As I've been saying for years to people RTFI! (sometimes RTFM! where appropriate)
     
  20. Richard_

    Richard_ Screwfix Select

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