Is kitchen fitting a "trade"

Discussion in 'Kitchen Fitters' Talk' started by roythehandyman, Sep 24, 2010.

  1. roythehandyman

    roythehandyman New Member

    I noticed in the fourum that it says "other trades" impying that kitchen fitting is a trade. With the utmost respect, Is kitchen fitting a trade? I mean to say, I served a five year aprenticeship to become a tradesman (carpenter). Is there such a thing as a kitchen fitting aprentiship ? I have never heard of one.I fit a great deal of kitchens each year and apart from the odd infill and bit of makeup, I think that anyone with a couple of ounces of common sense could fit a kitchen.Even a but and scribe joint is simple enough with a jig and router that does the job for us. I used to do them with a saw and pencil and still acheive a first class results.

    So lets have it, If you are a kitchen fitter, did you serve some sort of aprenticeship and gain a certificate that clearley states that you are a "qualified kitchen fitter" not a carpenter or joiner a "kitchen fitter
     
  2. Somerset Sam

    Somerset Sam New Member

    Put your toys back in the Pram! A good fitter needs no piece of paper, we trade on reputation. I never advertise yet I'm always busy and make a good living.
     
  3. Bring on 1966

    Bring on 1966 New Member

    roythehandyman your a *

    [Edited by: admin]
     
  4. snezza30

    snezza30 Member

    Some people have got a lot of cheek!!!!!! I have been fitting high quality fitted kitchens for nearly 30 years,I am part P certified, I was CORGI registered(before it changed over, now i get a small gas company to do my small amount of gas work). I do all my own plumbing, WRAS certified, all my own plastering, all my own tiling, walls and floors,let alone all the skills and knowledge that you need to fit a kitchen CORRECTLY !!! The quantity and quality of the tools that are required to do the job are second to none!!!

    Is kithen fitting a trade?

    You are F.....g right it is!!!
    Snezza30
     
  5. Captain Leaky

    Captain Leaky New Member

    Kitchen fitting is NOT a TRADE...it is SEVERAL TRADES which means a good kitchen fitter is MULTI-SKILLED in various trades.

    Most kitchen fits require: Carpentry, Plumbing, Electrics, Tiling, Flooring, Painting and Plastering skills. Sometimes other skills such as Building, Brickwork, Glazing are needed too.

    Most good fitters will cover several trades and bring in specialists where needed. We do all the carpentry, plumbing, tiling, plastering and decorating that is required and bring in Gas and Electrics separately.
     
  6. Guest

  7. biasqinc

    biasqinc Member

    I agree with Captain Leaky.

    I might add that having a bit of paper to prop up your ego has absolutely no correlation with quality of work or attitude. I have worked in 3 distinct industries and have met more cowboys in the building industry than any other. Most of those cowboys are time served qualified tradesmen. They think they know it all and probably started out that way too which is why the only job they could get at the start of their career was labouring. A short supply of skilled decent people when times were good allowed them to jump up a few rungs of the ladder. I can go in my local pub and meet a hundred top quality tradesmen when they're sat at the bar and almost all of them disappoint me when put to the test.

    However all is not lost as having to kiss a lot of frogs does in the end produce the odd prince and I'm lucky now to be able to draw on a skilled pool of labour. What I did learn in the good times is that the guy who was available next week is almost always an idiot.
     
  8. loosenup

    loosenup Member

    Er Yes it is a trade.

    Local councils and colleges now run a basic city and guilds qualification.. or as it is now known as an NVQ. The young lad I have working for me has NVQ level 1 in kitchen fitting. Granted it is not a 5 year course but it is a start.Kitchen fitting is a relatively new trade in the big scale of things. Go back just 30 years and kitchens were so basic they were just a couple of units on the wall.. I can remember some of the first built in apppliance that looked like they just came out of Capt Nemos submarine. I also remember the launch of the first fully integrated dishwasher by Ariston.. just look at the choice now .. A fitter has to have a good knowledge of all the products that are available to be installed and this amounts to a myriad of information.. this in my mind says that yes it is a trade because of the skill and knowledge involved in doing the job .. Yup any person with a goodly amount of common sense can install a Kitchen but not to the standard of a professional experienced fitter. Over the years I have fired quite a few carpenters who said they could fit kitchens ( although their carpentry was excellent they did not have the first clue about fitting kitchens.. We should be called trade officially.
    Just my opinion
    Phill
     
  9. roythehandyman

    roythehandyman New Member

    Screwfix has a "trade" section" I went in there for some pumbing bits and a couple of lengths of trunking, They would not serve me because I did not have a city and guilds in plumbing, the also could not serve me with the trunking because I did not have city & guilds for electrical work.

    So it follows that if they were to open a trade outlet for kitchen units, then they would not be able to serve any of us! Because as I suspected no one has a city and guilds in kitchen fitting!!!

    Just because someone is always busy does not mean that they are competent. It could be that they will take ten times longer to do a job because they are not that skilled.

    I started my post with the term "with the utmost respect" I was keen to discover if kitchen fitting is in fact an accredited trade.

    I have been plumbing for decades, same goes for electrical work, plastering and carpentry. But I am not allowed to buy a piece of trunking or a tap from "screwfix elec" or "screwfix plumb" !!!!! there is no "screwfix kitchen" I Wondered why ! NOW i know why, none of us would be able to buy a kitchen unit :)

    If someone is really good at removing teeth but has no formal training, can they practice as a dentist!!!
     
  10. loosenup

    loosenup Member

    now you are just being pedantic there Roy .. there are legal ramifications regarding pulling teeth out ... mind you sometimes getting money out of customers can be just as painful. Electrics and plumbing both have legal requirements associated with the trades .. as yet other than a few building regs there is no regs about how to hang a wall unit up. Read my post .. my apprentice has an NVQ in kitchen fitting .. and the health and safety cert. KBB are campaigning to get a formal qualification just like other trades.. Only drawback there is .. what happens to us guys over over 30 years experience if they do start issuing certs to new people .. will be just like the gas and electric.. we will be left behind by the new boys .. who will know naff all but have a piece of paper to prove it .
    Phill
     
  11. Joelp1

    Joelp1 New Member

    not sure about the teeth thing roy, but i'm keen to have a go if you fancy it :^O
     
  12. G Brown

    G Brown New Member

    The Screwfix Trade Counters are a waste of time anyway, they don't carry anything like the amount of stock they should. Go to the B&Q Tradepoint counters, they are much better stocked and staffed.
     
  13. Captain Leaky

    Captain Leaky New Member

    Well Plumbfix is for plumbers and Electrifix is for electricians so I guess you are neither?

    In which case don't bother and go elsewhere. It's not as if you are missing out on anything exciting......
     
  14. roythehandyman

    roythehandyman New Member

    Well no-one has a certificate to prove they are a quaified kitchen fitter! So we all have to rely on our q.b.e status (qualified by experience)

    So if we as kitchen fitters can get by by saying we have "been at it for years" and so we are qualified then what the hell did I spend 3 years making tea and sweeping the floor and one year mutilating bits of wood until it looked nice, getting paid 20% of the average labourers wage for!

    I have come to the opinion that kitchen fitting is a talent not a trade.

    My post was not intended to be disrespectful in any way. But to earn the title "tradesman" I think one should be able to back the claim up with some formal verifiable evidence such as a certificate.

    I am a tradesman, I am a time served carpenter! with a certificate that I was given about ten years before i become "skilled" carpenter. The words "tradesman" and "skilled" do not have the same meaning.
     
  15. snezza30

    snezza30 Member

    Roy, how many times in all those years have you been asked to produce those certificates as proof of your knowledge and ability? Do those certificates prove to a potential customer that you are good at carpentry? A "Tradesman" is not defined as someone who has a file full of papers with his name on it!

    I served a 4 year apprenticeship in electrical engineering and have certificates that say so,but i have been fitting kitchens for 3 decades and if any one asked me what my trade was, I would be proud to tell them i was a KITCHEN FITTER, not an electrical engineer !!!!
     
  16. kilgore

    kilgore New Member

    Roy the "handy man" knows full well that there is no such certificates or such for kitchen fitting .Its not a trade in itself as we all know but many trades used together with many years experience .As for his comments about anyone with a couple of ounces of common sense being able to fit a kitchen i can only think of the horrific fits he must have left behind. And as for a saw and pencil joint ,that speaks for itself. Stick to being a "handyman" roy and leave fitted kitchens to those of us who know that it takes more than a bit common sense to fit a kitchen . You might want to think about getting a spellchecker on your next posts .Just check your spelling out roy .If its anything like your fitting ,god help your customers.
     
  17. loosenup

    loosenup Member

    I would like to know who gave out the first certificate for carpentry and when ?.. and what made them qualified to do so? Who was the first qualified carpenter? or for that who was the first qualified anything ? Kitchen fitting is a relatively new trade compared to others .. who is gonna be the first to get a trade qualification .. and who is going to be qualified to give that out ?..It is a matter of time and course that it will be a recognised trade some time in the future because there is so much involved in installing a kitchen correctly that is has to happen . I have been fitting for 30 years .. am I qualified to say another person is a fitter.. possibly .. but how are we going to set the relevant standards and who decides which standards are the right ones . I know fitters who can talk the talk but are rubbish at doing the do.

    comments please. or suggestions .. or nominations for president of the "guild of the master fitter" :)

    Phill
     
  18. roythehandyman

    roythehandyman New Member

    i never claimed to be a typist and the keyboard on this phone is quite small. The term butt and scribe come from using a saw and scribing the cut to the adjoining piece. We didnt need colour fill in those days either. But you knew that didnt you. I wish i could upload a picture of a fish rising to the baite. gotcha ;
     
  19. biasqinc

    biasqinc Member

    I have thought about this and the OP does have a point depending on how you look at it. Many kitchen fitters dry fit only and get other trades in for just about everything else. It could be argued that common sense and a bit of practice would enable most people to become reasonably proficient at that aspect of a kitchen fit. Let's face it, is it that hard to attach square boxes to each other and make them level. Worktops don't exactly add much complexity and being able to do a mason mitre or a sink cutout certainly doesn't make someone a craftsman. Having a router in your toolkit, if that's all you do with it, isn't exactly cooking on gas in the skill department.

    However there are many kitchen fitters that are genuinely multi-skilled and they need to be. Customers don't want a whole load of different people in their house with all the associated problems that can go with that. I do most things and do it to a high standard but don't ever touch electrics or gas work. I also don't do certain types of flooring, e.g Karndean or lino. I get plasterers in for major works and do minor repairs and prep for setting coats.

    Does it make me a tradesmen in the same sense as a highly skilled carpenter or plumber? It probably doesn't when you think about it but does it really matter? I do know that in my experience it is harder to find a good all round kitchen fitter than it is to find a good plumber or chippie. Could that be due to a lack of formal training options?

    The other thing to consider is that at least 50% of the population seem to have a Howdens or Magnets account!! This is one of many reasons why I don't use them anymore. Most of them are also out and about fitting them to, albeit to a low standard IMHO. There is no way that someone that wants to "have a go" would contemplate building a staircase or installing a new boiler and rads.

    That shouldn't belitte the skills and knowledge of good kitchen fitters but the OP is right in what he is trying to imply. I consider myself nowadays to be a good kitchen fitter but it wasn't always that way and started by "having a go" myself. The fact that all these years later I'm still a jack of all trades and master of none probably makes me and many other good kitchen fitters extremely competent handymen and nothing more!!!!!!
     
  20. roythehandyman

    roythehandyman New Member

    Well biasqinc, that was such a good post it would surely qualify as a very good "blog" in it's own right.

    You have grasped the op and come to the same conclusion as myself, without taking offence or giving any.If you fit kitchens with all the care and thought that you put into answering my question, then I am sure that your installations are spot on and a credit to the art of kitchen fitting.

    you wrote that "there are many kitchen fitters that are genuinely multi-skilled " It is because of that reason that I am never without work because I am such a person. The front page of my website has a notice on it which clearly states that "I am unable to take on any work for some time" that notice has been on there since July of last year. Anyone with enough programing skills can verify that.

    Having a plumber, plasterer,kitchen fitter and a tiler in your home can be stressful to say the least. If a customer can call one chap in to sort everything is a dream come true.

    Other kitchen installers call me in to sort out the plumbing/tiling/electrics etc on their projects, so I know that my work is up to scratch or they would not do that. There is many a person that can act,sing,write their own songs/music/play guitar and piano and do stand up comedy. They can do it and they have made millions of pounds by doing so, are they cowboys? I think not.

    The reasons I made my original post were two fold. Screwfix refused to recognize my plumbing and electrical skills demanding proof of my experience insisting on an N.V.Q or such. They have implied that kitchen fitters are tradesmen but kitchen fitters do not have to comply with the same rules!

    Most tradesmen have done their "five years" to earn the title. Kitchen fitters have bestowed the title upon themselves.

    If someone has been sweeping the streets for 30yrs does that make him a tradesman! I think not.
     

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