J.T. Builders Ltd. Must be a hoot having you around the house doing a job. Such a rich appreciation of irony "and stop being a n*b"
Dvddvd. Looking at my last post (to you...), you'd need a separate membrane for the cistern itself to tape around the vent pipe. Ie: tape (using good gaffa-type-tape) a plastic sheet to the top outside edge of the cistern, making sure you also cover and seal any holes (handle holes, etc). Then seal this membrane to the vent pipe. Try not to leave any of the outside surface of the cistern exposed to the 'venting' air. Whether it's then best to add another membrane around the whole boxing, or to leave this free to breath - I dunno Needs thinking through...
Hi thanks again, the frame and cistern I was looking at has a insulated cistern fitted, but when/if I get it I will have a good look at it and work something out.
What he wanting to do is remove some inner blocks and fit a concealed cistern where the blocks were. It would be under a window and not affect any structural aspects. That so? His concept is sound. If he removed the inner blocks he would need to seal up the cavity all around the opening, so that no water will drop down the cavity if a leak in the cistern. The cistern is the same depth as the blocks. On the inner side of the outer brick install Kingspan or Celotex high performing insulation to keep the insulation values up. The quality of the work must be high to maintain sealing all around the sealed cavity. What he is doing is no less than those awful inset electric meter cupboards which drag heat out of a house at amazing speed. They don't seal up the cavities or put insulation behind. They cool the cavity big time and create a chimney affect sucking cold air in and out the cavity.
If u were a builder of any kind u would know that u should never bridge the cavity with anything but wall ties or trays, period! What the hell is an insert electricity meter cupboard? What does that do?
It seems there can’t be much wrong with any innovation that is rejected by some tradesmen. Afflicted by the Not Invented Here syndrome they start by damning it as an idea of the DIY devil that no self-respecting professional would be seen dead with. Then after a decade or two of successful use by amateurs they reluctantly adopt it as though it was their idea in the first place.
Most tradesmen haven't an ounce of creative thinking in their whole bodies. They base most on what they have done for 25 years.
Most tradesmen haven't an ounce of creative thinking in their whole bodies. They base most on what they have done for 25 years. :O Serious question, is Devils Advocate a teacher?
In my (considerable)experience good tradesmen are both creative and ingenious on a regular basis. However there is a point where creativity becomes a lash up. This sorry story is a good example of muddled "lash-up" thinking.
I agree Hotdog - in particular general builders are very good at thinking their way round a problem. But you do have to be careful that you don't get too creative and end up with a bodge!
Hi dvddvd. The insulation problem I'd be most concerned about is condensation forming on the cistern wall. On an exposed cistern, the condensation droplets would normally evaporate away after the room returned to 'normal' humidity levels. Or else it drips to the floor and evaporates there In your situation, air won't be able to circulate to dry it off, but moist air probably will still be able to penetrate the casing/wall to condense on the cistern wall. So, I'd suggest the best solution would be to try and prevent the moist air getting to it in the e first place. Ie: fit a membrane (virtually any kind of plastic sheet) around the outside of whole boxing to seal it off from its surroundings, Pack between the boxing and the cistern with insulation - poly beads/ loft insulation, ? Even with this, you could have problems... Imagine what happens when you flush the loo - water empties from the cistern to be replaced by air. This air will be sucked in from outside the boxing. When the cistern fills, this air will be expelled d and end up around the outside of the cistern wall - inside your boxing. It'll condense, and the water will be trapped inside your waterproofing membrane So... I'd suggest a vent pipe added to the top of your cistern, venting to the cavity behind it. Bring your membrane sheet up around this pipe and tape it tightly around it - all the cistern air should hopefully be taken in and expelled only via this pipe. Sorry to disagree wit that DA, well not really But as I see it, the cistern being inside a box will be largely protected from the warmth of the room, so inside the box, the cold water will keep the inside of the box reasonably cool. Therefore, minimising condensation. Also(on the vent idea), it wouldn't surprise me if the cistern has an internal overflow(overflowing into the bowl) which will act as a vent, which would actually be better all round as a slightly warmer air would be entering the cistern from the warmth of the room(but only slightly). Anything making the water warmer would help prevent condensation. If though, it needs to overflow to the outside, an added problem of getting the pipe through the box, the insulation and the outer brickwork arises(regarding keeping everything insulated properly. Not a big problem, but needing consideration. Mr. Handyandy - really
Happy to disagree, Mr Ha - and I do "...the cold water will keep the inside of the box reasonably cool. Therefore, minimising condensation." It's the fact of the cistern being cool that could cause condensation, when warm, moist air fro the bathroom permeates the wall and boxing. Also, "...slightly warmer air would be entering the cistern from the warmth of the room... would be precisely the type of air you wouldn't want, as this kind of air will be holding a greater amount of moisture in it. All ready to condense out when it hits the cold cistern...
I'll have you know I was a smug, patronising, know-all with a seriously up-my-own-**** attitude waaay before I became a teacher. Anyways, I ain't one any more...
Happy to disagree, Mr Ha - and I do "...the cold water will keep the inside of the box reasonably cool. Therefore, minimising condensation." It's the fact of the cistern being cool that could cause condensation, when warm, moist air fro the bathroom permeates the wall and boxing. Also, "...slightly warmer air would be entering the cistern from the warmth of the room... would be precisely the type of air you wouldn't want, as this kind of air will be holding a greater amount of moisture in it. All ready to condense out when it hits the cold cistern... No, DA. The fact that the cistern is concealed in a box, means it is not in the room area, so not as subject to the room warmth as it would be if it were in the room. Therefore, inside the box will be cooler than inside the room. This is a bonus towards preventing condensation(less temperature difference=less condensation). On the subject of the air being drawn in through the overflow pipe, this enters the INSIDE of the cistern, and if the air entering the inside of the cistern is warmer, this would further lower the difference between temperatures inside and outside the cistern. It seems the project is actually giving more benefits than at first thought. Mr. Handyandy - really
The cisterns comes insulated so will that mean that it does not matter how cold the water thats entering the cistern with the insulated cistern it will not effect the outside of the cistern with condensation. On a normal built in cistern in a boxing these must be prone to condensation, thats why they must insulate the actual cisterns to combat the problem.
The cisterns comes insulated so will that mean that it does not matter how cold the water thats entering the cistern with the insulated cistern it will not effect the outside of the cistern with condensation. On a normal built in cistern in a boxing these must be prone to condensation, thats why they must insulate the actual cisterns to combat the problem. An insulated cistern is perfect. Have you considered putting the cistern in the loft with a long hidden flush pipe? The flush mechanism needs to be electric. The volume of water can be far less than using a low level cistern, saving water if on meter.