No, we just have had confirmed what we already knew. Our government is weak, our Prime Minister is weak and the EU are eager to keep the U.K. money going their direction. No surprises yet. We are still leaving, but we don’t have the right people in charge. It takes a challenge in politics like we have at present to prove how games are being played.
Okay. I will leave it to the Remainers to give us their views on how we improve and alter the future. ...and if anyone suggests we can go back to being in the EU, - that will be delusional.
Honestly, it depends on if the PM can remain in power and with enough support in Westminster. None of the options at present seem sensible. This is less to do with Brexit and more to do with our British politicians not up to their job, as always.
A politician's job is not an easy one. What they want and would like to do is often highly constrained to some degree, as it is in this case. The hard-line Brexiteers, for example, know that they are taking a huge risk if they try and force the vote of no confidence in May; if they get their wish, who will take over from her who will suit them better? A hard-line Brexiteer? I doubt it - would the Tory party really go for that? So it could easily back-fire. The Tory party also knows that a 'hard' exit would almost certainty be so damaging to the UK's economy and reputation that it could make the party unelectable for potentially decades. That will focus the minds of most Tory MPs too. How this will all pan out - how all the various MPs from all parties end up voting each time - will rarely be a true reflection of what they - as individuals - actually 'want' with that vote; it will more likely be a game of chess with each move deciding the next, all to end up at the desired result. So, for the moment, support for May's deal is most likely to be carried forward - but that does not mean that most MPs actually want it. Most do not. Which is cool - 'cos nor do I.
We are all doomed...That's what I would say... We are flogging a dead horse. Its all a terrible mistake. Its all madness. People didn't understand and didn't want to listen when it was said you just can't walk away. My mate says.. Muck the EU Just walk away.. Don't pay them and don't do anything they say we have to do. Its don't work like that. I gave up on it all because nothing I do or say can effect what happens and nobody is talking sense.. We will be back in the EU one day I predict
I agree, Wayners - one of the most stupefyingly ignorant remarks a British human being can make is "WHY DON'T WE JUST LEAVE!!!" It encapsulates the complete ignorance and lack of information that went in to the reasoning behind the referendum vote. The insanity of allowing such a constitutionally-vital decision to be left to the general public - lawdie. Ditto with independence referendums. Nuts. Such refs should have a minimum threshold of votes to pass - say 75% or so. Once you get that sort of agreement in the general population, then it may well be time to listen. But half?! When that half are typically represented by the scurrilous and dishonest u-s on here?! You have got to be kidding.
With respect AS (ie this isn’t an argument for the sake of it) I think the rejection of this agreement by people here disproves one of your claims. You’ve often claimed that many of those voting leave did so for racist reasons. I think we can now test that claim. This agreement ends free movement of people. IF that was the most important issue to people then they’d welcome this agreement - but they haven’t, have they? Even if you don’t accept my argument, you must admit that it’s interesting that few leavers have a nice thing to say about an agreement that ends the free movement of people. I thought that was one of the things that quitters felt strongly about.
If there's one thing that pretty much everyone on here can agree on, is that you, btiw2, ain't a fool. So why you would put forward such a patently false premise makes me shake my head in disappointed wonder. Your question makes the assumption that most of those who voted 'Leave' are more sophisticated than I believe them to be, that they actually gave it that much actual consideration. I don't believe they did; they simply acted on 'gut'. That 'gut' was a feeling that 'we' are better than 'them', that 'we' are hurting (that bit is true), that 'them' coming over 'here' was obviously spoiling things for us, that 'them' were being given stuff that 'we' were not, and that the obvious culprit was the EU 'telling us what to do' (because we were always suspicious of everyone else that ain't a Brit) and they were pulling a fast one over us whilst taking our money for no benefit to us. Ie - ignorance coupled with overt or covert 'wee bitty racism'. Call it other stuff if you wish - jingoism. Xenophobia. Tribalism. I believe - with good reason - that this applies to the majority certainly, and the vast majority possibly. If you were to ask the average Leaver "Does May's deal end the free movement of people?", most would say "I don't know' or "I doubt it". This 'Leave' malarkey is a simple thing for most of them, and if they don't get a simple answer - LEAVE! - then they won't look at it any further. A 'deal' = a fudge. Details are immaterial. You really think this is a test of that assumption of mine that racism (and all its associated nasties) played a significant part in the Leave decision?! Really?! Good lord. Why aren't Leavers grasping this deal with both clammy hands, you ask? Because they haven't a clue what this 'deal' actually involves (even Longs had to ask...) but they do see it as a 'compromise', a 'fudge', ie not Leaving. They still think the EU is pulling a fast one on them. They still think the EU is out to get them. They still think that all the EU wants is our money. They still think... Ie, they don't really 'think'. They do not examine the information or evidence. The staunch Leavers - after all this time, after all this debacle (which was BOUND to happen) - still say the same stuff. In any case, who are you basing your assumption on that 'few Leavers have a nice thing to say about this agreement' - the Leavers on this forum? The u-s on here are waaaay off the scale of normal Leavers; they want the destruction of the EU as well - they have said so. You reckon a 'deal' is going to satisfy that?! More informed folk knew that this mess was going to happen - it was so complex a matter that it was bound to. Most of the Leavers thought then - and still do now - that it should be a matter of 'walking away' from the EU, as if it were a £5 purchase of a shabby toy from a market stall. This 'deal' doesn't give them 'Leave' - that's as far as their thinking goes. (RS would love the chance to terminate May, such is the strength of his feeling ). How you could possibly suggest that this proves or disproves whether the majority were essentially xenophobic or racist or anything else is ludicrous. With respect.
Btiw2, is "Never trust an Arab" a 'racist' remark? Does it suggest something about the author? What about claiming that an Asian black mayor would be more lenient towards afro-Caribbean black criminals, just because they are both 'black'. (That's like woooooooo) Ok, what about immigrants being 'excrement'? And there was other stuff too that I cannot recall at the mo'. These are from folk who know they have to be careful about what they say on here. That's your u-s, those who 'let slip' at least. None of their sidekicks challenged or condemned these comments - ever. That's the level we are talking about. And you dare to suggest that because they are not grasping May's deal it might suggest they are not racist. B***** me with a bargepole. (And on my old thread about the Attorney in the US having a blatantly racist rant at Hispanics in a restaurant where I dared suggest that this reminded me of some on here - part in fun and part seriously - you claimed it was I who was the one spreading poison. Well g t f o. No wonder DA left in disgust.)
I didn’t realise I could cause this level of disappointment without a wedding ring. I’m not denying that some awful things have been written about whole groups of people. But it’s a bit rich when you’ve just written paragraphs suggesting that millions of voters are too thick to understand the broad terms of the agreement. That’s some next level (not sure what noun to use), Misanthropy? Condescension? Intellectual snobbery? Also, Longs asked for the full text of the agreement, that’s not the same as not having a “clue”, is it? I claimed that if ending the free movement of people was such an important issue for many people then this agreement would have secured more support. It didn’t, so it wasn’t. Your argument is now that ending the free movement of people is still important, but people are too thick to find out what is in the agreement? Is that right?
Show me the wedding ring, pal. How many folk voted 'Leave' - around 15 million? How many of these lack the most basic understanding of what the 'EU' is and how it has benefited the UK? No idea - but I'd happily bet it's the majority. How many of these are a 'wee bitty racist'? No idea, but I'd bet my last buck on it being the majority. In both cases I'd probably raise my bid for 'vast'. And win handsomely. These are not horrible people*, even tho' they are a 'wee bitty racist'. They are of their time, their generation, their ideology. I know many of them in 'real life' - they are good people, I work alongside them, they do charitable work, I really really like them, but they are still deluded. I mentioned before one of these guys I know who was bemoaning the state of the NHS and I said "Just wait until a hard Brexit - it'll be worse". He stopped and looked at me in bewilderment; "Really?!" He really did think that 'Leaving' would be instantly great for the UK economy. (He did - his expression of astonishment was genuine). So, not very well informed in my view. BUT, he also posts on Facebook these 'shared' whatsits like "British pensioners work 40 years for £6k per year when illegal immigrants get given £28k for nothing. Share if you think this is disgusting." I don't know if he truly believes these things even tho' I have told them they are simply not true - but the thing is, he wants to believe it. It would be soooo convenient for it to be true. So satisfying for his angst and disillusionment at the state of pensioners in this country (of which he is one). It would be the answer, the explanation. He wants it to be. So simple, so satisfying, to blame 'others'. This is a 'bright' guy - he's an engineer and ran his own successful business. He is great company - he's a bit of a grump and curmudgeon, but that just adds to his charm; I love helping him out and will drop everything whenever he calls up. I would not 'describe' him as a 'racist', but, youknow... *Some of the u-s on here are - in my view - truly horrible people.
I thought my post was reasoned and reasonable, opening up the possibility of discussing the widespread rejection of the draft agreement. Wouldn’t that be nicer than flinging insults? I agree that some people on this forum have said truly horrible things, does that make them truly horrible people? I hope not, because I probably have too.
I thought I'd answered your reasonable Q, and wasn't aware I was flinging insults.(I do try to target them). The seeming fact that Leavers in general have not embraced May's 'deal' does not mean they are not racist. It's a non-whatsit. There is no correlation. The 'racist' contingent of the Leave vote - some hardened, some soft, some merely 'of their time' - would not choose May's fudge as they simply see it as a betrayal - the EU STILL HAS CONTROL OVER US. We have NOT left. That's it. On a different but connected matter, I do not consider some on here to be horrible because they've made their 'racist' views clear (although I find Deleted member 11267's comment hard to take), but I find a small number to be 'horrible' because of their personal nastiness, intentional distortions and patent dishonesty with these issues. For instance, I don't think IIR is horrible; he was merely silly to make his Asian mayor remark. But I do find Longsie and Filly hard to stomach for their incessant deviousness. Personal? Yes, it has become so.
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