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Allsorts
Guest
And that's what our honest plumber said too - every person who voiced their reasons to him said that was the issue.
That, in itself, doesn't necessarily make them 'racist'; there are undoubtedly genuine issues being created by pressure on our services in particular areas by large groups of immigrants and refugees being concentrated there. But there is also an unwillingness by the indigenous populations to examine the larger picture; the overwhelming benefits of immigration, and the basic humanity of allowing it.
When everything with the economy is going smoothly, there is rarely an issue. All it needs is a 'crisis', and that's what we had in 2008. What has history taught us? - that in such times, tribalism takes over especially in the least educated amongst us. We resort to basic instincts; animal evolutionary behaviour.
History has also shown us what ultimately happens.
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chippie244
Guest
Normally the u/s would be all over this with misspelt rants and racist tropes but nothing.
I know their spiritual leader, filly, is missing in action but come on boys...
I know their spiritual leader, filly, is missing in action but come on boys...
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chippie244
Guest
Nope, they've realised the error of their ways and have sloped off with their tails between their legs and their heads held in shame.
A
Allsorts
Guest
I wish, but I doubt it.
The whole EU Ref 'thing' is becoming murkier by the day. Further info coming out about Bank's seedy involvement and how he met with Bannon on a regular basis well before the vote, asking him for ways to target ex-pats in the US for funds (illegal).
Bannon, meanwhile, had been (and continues to) coordinating the rise of the far-right populist nationalist racist xenophobic bigoted groups all across Europe and the US - starting with Trump, but he considers Brexit as his major step in to Europe.
Where else does Banks and Bannon get their funds from? That's going to be very very interesting; but looking increasingly likely there will be ties exposed to Russian businessmen.
Who else meets with Bannon? Well, apart from Banks, Farage was his right-hand man of course, but then there was Johnson, and Mogg.
Why are all these seemingly disparate folk all seemingly connected with a shared goal? What kind of future Britain could these right-wing, multi-millionaire individuals want?
Does Mogg - personal fortune of around onehundredmillion and a societal throwback - give a jot about the average Leave voter? I cannot believe he gives them a second thought - as he moves his hedge-fund's money to Ireland - other than for them to do his bidding for him; so he must carry on his faux-intellectual manner that they find sooooo engaging.
The EU Leave vote is becoming more seedy by the day. The reasons why Leave won is becoming more dodgy by the day. The drivers of the Leave campaigns are driven by self-interest only, and want a divided, populist, nationalist, racist, tribalist right-wing Europe of individual countries.
I don't think this is going to turn out well.
The connection betwixt Trump and the Leave campaign is total; driven by the same people, with identical aims; deregulate business, kick environmental regs in to next week, deal with ANY despot ANYWHERE as long as it makes a buck. Harangue and bully. LIE. Oh yes - tells LIES - that's of utmost importance; it won't work without LIES.
No wonder that France is now insisting that the departed GB must continue to abide by the EU's agreed environmental regulations; France does not trust the departed UK to have the moral integrity to do so, so must be obliged by law. France fears that a departed UK would literally do a Trump all over the world for a fast buck.
And under the scurrilous leaders of Leave, I fear we would - little question. Because whatever happens, the wealthiest will always be ok. And they will be wealthy beyond their wildest dreams.
And - by deliberately playing on their worst bigoted and racist fears - it would have been ignorant minions who put them there.
I hope you appreciate, btiw2, why I take this seriously.
The whole EU Ref 'thing' is becoming murkier by the day. Further info coming out about Bank's seedy involvement and how he met with Bannon on a regular basis well before the vote, asking him for ways to target ex-pats in the US for funds (illegal).
Bannon, meanwhile, had been (and continues to) coordinating the rise of the far-right populist nationalist racist xenophobic bigoted groups all across Europe and the US - starting with Trump, but he considers Brexit as his major step in to Europe.
Where else does Banks and Bannon get their funds from? That's going to be very very interesting; but looking increasingly likely there will be ties exposed to Russian businessmen.
Who else meets with Bannon? Well, apart from Banks, Farage was his right-hand man of course, but then there was Johnson, and Mogg.
Why are all these seemingly disparate folk all seemingly connected with a shared goal? What kind of future Britain could these right-wing, multi-millionaire individuals want?
Does Mogg - personal fortune of around onehundredmillion and a societal throwback - give a jot about the average Leave voter? I cannot believe he gives them a second thought - as he moves his hedge-fund's money to Ireland - other than for them to do his bidding for him; so he must carry on his faux-intellectual manner that they find sooooo engaging.
The EU Leave vote is becoming more seedy by the day. The reasons why Leave won is becoming more dodgy by the day. The drivers of the Leave campaigns are driven by self-interest only, and want a divided, populist, nationalist, racist, tribalist right-wing Europe of individual countries.
I don't think this is going to turn out well.
The connection betwixt Trump and the Leave campaign is total; driven by the same people, with identical aims; deregulate business, kick environmental regs in to next week, deal with ANY despot ANYWHERE as long as it makes a buck. Harangue and bully. LIE. Oh yes - tells LIES - that's of utmost importance; it won't work without LIES.
No wonder that France is now insisting that the departed GB must continue to abide by the EU's agreed environmental regulations; France does not trust the departed UK to have the moral integrity to do so, so must be obliged by law. France fears that a departed UK would literally do a Trump all over the world for a fast buck.
And under the scurrilous leaders of Leave, I fear we would - little question. Because whatever happens, the wealthiest will always be ok. And they will be wealthy beyond their wildest dreams.
And - by deliberately playing on their worst bigoted and racist fears - it would have been ignorant minions who put them there.
I hope you appreciate, btiw2, why I take this seriously.
J
joinerjohn1
Guest
There were many reasons for leaving the EU. You chose to pick up on immigration ,( initially) as you have right from the moment you lost the referendum) and now it seems, also blame environmental factors and de-regulated business. So what is it matey ? Is it immigration , de-regulated business , or is it the environment ? I can’t think of one reason to keep on paying whatever £millions we currrently pay to our EU masters, in return for them retaining control of our country. Because in simple terms that’s what they want . You know it, the rest of the country know it, but you just can’t see it. I see on BBC News this morning, the EU want to have a single budget for the EU. All members bound by the same EU set budget, with big fines for those countries who choose to return their own fiscal policy ( eg different from that the EU) They have already rejected the budget of Italy. How long before they will order our own chancellor to go back and re-do a budget which suits the EU rather than have a budget that suits our needs
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A
Allsorts
Guest
Yes, there were many reasons, but really only one big biggie - and it applies to all the u-s on here too as far as I can see. All the other stuff you've just added is a diversion - as well you know.
The second biggest reason has just been highlighted by yourself; complete and utter ignorance - aka evasion - of the benefits of EU membership, and what we stand to lose. That 'gut' feeling that Brits are special and we surely must be being held back by the EU - they are our virtual enemies after all... Simple-minded Jingoism. Ignorance. 'Just wait until we're FREE! It'll be GREAT!
That is - quite literally - the extent of thinking by a large swath of the Leave voting population. You either know this to be true, or else you are pretending it isn't.
Mindless fodder to the Bannons and Banks'. Good lawd.
You won't answer what your honest plumber says (even tho' you've just asked him about this again...
) and you will completely avoid the mounting evidence against the lying team who lead and manipulated this Ref vote; those who took you for the mugs you are.Keep deviating, JJ. No change there.
Putin and every other despot who stands to gain is 'proud' of you as they snigger.
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btiw2
Screwfix Select
What is it with old men and their obsession with apocalypse fantasies?
I think predicting the end of the world or collapse of society is a disease of aging, like heart disease or prostate cancer.
On this forum there’s a menu of prophesies. Do we choose destruction by immigration, the fourth reich, political correctness, EU financial collapse, the Labour Party, Russia, Trump, media studies degree courses, gay marriage on the BBC?
It seems that every old man is a prophet of doom, ending sentences with phrases like “mark my words” (spoiler: don’t waste your ink marking their words). It’s not a trait you see often in the young or the economically active (unless it’s climate change then some young people can get carried away too).
Why is that? In pre-literate times old men may have functioned as sages. Now we have sciences, mathematics and analysis to guide us, so the old men aren’t relevant - vestigial - like an appendix.
Perhaps it’s just that old men have nothing better to occupy their time.
Perhaps they can only get someone to listen to them by upping their spoken “special effects budget”.
Perhaps old people are just scared of the world. Dunno.
So, yeah, AS. Trump, Russia, Nazis - forgive me rolling my eyes.
The thing is, I didn’t think you were old enough to sounds like RS/Harry et al yet.
I know - “you just wait and see sonny” - right? Whatever, would you like a cocoa?
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Isitreally
Guest
"It’s pretty hard for Britain’s friends, here in Australia, to make sense of the mess that’s being made of Brexit. The referendum result was perhaps the biggest-ever vote of confidence in the United Kingdom, its past and its future. But the British establishment doesn’t seem to share that confidence and instead looks desperate to cut a deal, even if that means staying under the rule of Brussels. Looking at this from abroad, it’s baffling: the country that did the most to bring democracy into the modern world might yet throw away the chance to take charge of its own destiny. Let’s get one thing straight: a negotiation that you’re not prepared to walk away from is not a negotiation — it’s surrender. It’s all give and no get. When David Cameron tried to renegotiate Britain’s EU membership, he was sent packing because Brussels judged (rightly) that he’d never actually back leaving. And since then, Brussels has made no real concessions to Theresa May because it judges (rightly, it seems) that she’s desperate for whatever deal she can get. The EU’s palpable desire to punish Britain for leaving vindicates the Brexit project. Its position, now, is that there’s only one ‘deal’ on offer, whereby the UK retains all of the burdens of EU membership but with no say in setting the rules. The EU seems to think that Britain will go along with this because it’s terrified of no deal. Or, to put it another way, terrified of the prospect of its own independence. But even after two years of fearmongering and vacillation, it’s not too late for robust leadership to deliver the Brexit that people voted for. It’s time for Britain to announce what it will do if the EU can’t make an acceptable offer by March 29 next year — and how it would handle no deal. Freed from EU rules, Britain would automatically revert to world trade, using rules agreed by the World Trade Organization. It works pretty well for Australia. So why on earth would it not work just as well for the world’s fifth-largest economy? A world trade Brexit lets Britain set its own rules. It can say, right now, that it will not impose any tariff or quota on European produce and would recognise all EU product standards. That means no border controls for goods coming from Europe to Britain. You don’t need to negotiate this: just do it. If Europe knows what’s in its own best interests, it would fully reciprocate in order to maintain entirely free trade and full mutual recognition of standards right across Europe. Next, the UK should declare that Europeans already living here should have the right to remain permanently — and, of course, become British citizens if they wish. This should be a unilateral offer. Again, you don’t need a deal. You don’t need Michel Barnier’s permission. If Europe knows what’s best for itself, it would likewise allow Britons to stay where they are. Third, there should continue to be free movement of people from Europe into Britain — but with a few conditions. Only for work, not welfare. And with a foreign worker’s tax on the employer, to make sure anyone coming in would not be displacing British workers. Fourth, no ‘divorce bill’ whatsoever should be paid to Brussels. The UK government would assume the EU’s property and liabilities in Britain, and the EU would assume Britain’s share of these in Europe. If Britain was getting its fair share, these would balance out; and if Britain wasn’t getting its fair share, it’s the EU that should be paying Britain. Finally, there’s no need on Britain’s part for a hard border with Ireland. Britain wouldn’t be imposing tariffs on European goods, so there’s no money to collect. The UK has exactly the same product standards as the Republic, so let’s not pretend you need to check for problems we all know don’t exist. Some changes may be needed but technology allows for smart borders: there was never any need for a Cold War-style Checkpoint Charlie. Irish citizens, of course, have the right to live and work in the UK in an agreement that long predates EU membership. Of course, the EU might not like this British leap for independence. It might hit out with tariffs and impose burdens on Britain as it does on the US — but WTO rules put a cap on any retaliatory action. The worst it can get? We’re talking levies of an average 4 or 5 per cent. Which would be more than offset by a post-Brexit devaluation of the pound (which would have the added bonus of making British goods more competitive everywhere). UK officialdom assumes that a deal is vital, which is why so little thought has been put into how Britain might just walk away. Instead, officials have concocted lurid scenarios featuring runs on the pound, gridlock at ports, grounded aircraft, hoarding of medicines and flights of investment. It’s been the pre-referendum Project Fear campaign on steroids. And let’s not forget how employment, investment and economic growth ticked up after the referendum. As a former prime minister of Australia and a lifelong friend of your country, I would say this: Britain has nothing to lose except the shackles that the EU imposes on it. After the courage shown by its citizens in the referendum, it would be a tragedy if political leaders go wobbly now. Britain’s future has always been global, rather than just with Europe. Like so many of Britain’s admirers, I want to see this great country seize this chance and make the most of it."
Tony Abbott served as Prime Minister of Australia from 2013 to 2015
Tony Abbott served as Prime Minister of Australia from 2013 to 2015
kitfit1
Screwfix Select
That quote from The Spectator is about the most sensible view i think i've read on Brexit ever. All of "the experts" on this forum continuously shoving garbage down my throat about how bad it would be have forced me not to even bother reading said garbage half the time.
We voted to leave.......................let's just do it and get on with our lives.
No Guts. No Glory.
We should be leaving the EU as soon as possible.
I do not want a deal that the EU are happy with. When the EU are unhappy it tells me they are losing UK money.
As I have said before, if the vote had have been for Remain, the Remainers would have said no change.
longboat
Screwfix Select
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chippie244
Guest
But that's utter rubbish isn't it.
kitfit1
Screwfix Select
No, it's not. In fact it's 100% correct.
Cameron called the vote because he, the Labour leadership and the Lib Dems assumed we would all "toe the line" and fall in behind. We didn't and that shook the entire establishment. They still don't wan't to leave, the EU know's that and that's why we have ended up with this **** no deal from the EU. There is in fact only one option now and that's a very definate hard Brexit. Had our own politicians had the gut's to negotiate from this stance in the first place, things might have been different.
longboat
Screwfix Select
You'll have to read it first before making such a claim.
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chippie244
Guest
I did read it, did you?
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Allsorts
Guest
Longsie, of course, 'liked' that.
Very droll, btiw2. What an old fuddy-duddy I am for fearing the potential return to 1930's Europe - as if we are somehow immune.We are not.
No, I don't believe it'll come to 'that' - we have too many protections in place like a unified EU (oh bother!) - but who the hell wants it coming even close? Who wants to sit back and watch as things progress towards this until 'something' brings us back to our senses?
When you've finished being so droll (cocoa would be great, by the way - LOTS of milk, but no sugar), consider a broken EU with a separate Germany being led by Donald Furz.
Even then I doubt it'll go too far, but who wants even our environmental agreements torn up? Our hard-earned human rights? That is well beyond 'droll' and is what's happeneing in the US and is what would happen in Blighty under anyone like Fox, Mogg, Johnson, - you name them.
And how does it get to this? Pretty much as it got there in 1930's Europe - it requires fodder. Fodder with a wee beastie inside them. Uncritical fodder. Fodder than is not only blind to lies, but actively feeds on them.
Uninformed fodder that is being manipulated by provably-lying, conniving and law-breaking self-interested parties.
Fodder that will read a copied passage by an ex-aussie MP and simply shout "THAT'S IT! SENSIBLE! LET'S JUST LEAVE!"
"Why is that? In pre-literate times old men may have functioned as sages. Now we have sciences, mathematics and analysis - and history - to guide us, so the old men aren’t relevant - vestigial - like an appendix."
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Allsorts
Guest
Thank you, kitfit, for proving my point.
That seems to be as far as your thinking appears to go.
Tell me your sources of info (other than Abbott) that suggests a 'hard' Brexit will be painless and good for us?
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Allsorts
Guest
I'm pleased you read my post, Longsie.
Sorry* - I did not read your reply.
* At last a lie.
Sorry* - I did not read your reply.
* At last a lie.
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Isitreally
Guest
Don't tell me, tell the man who said it, you know the ex Prime Minister of Australia, not like he's an intelligent man or anything is it.