It's all gone quiet.

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btiw, is it "Paranoid fantasy" to believe the EU dictating to all member countries in the future? They've already told Italy to go back and re-think their own sovereign budget. Italy does things for it's own self interest. Forget about Brexit for a moment and look at the turmoil in the EU. Hungary and Poland refusing to accept refugees foisted upon them by the EU. Look at the problems France and Germany have with the influx of economic migrants (for that is what the majority of these refugees actually are)
 
It’s like whack-a-rat on here.


Elected. We vote for MEPs (unless my polling station has being playing a bizarre long con).


Business that favoured remain outnumbered those who wanted to leave by 16 to 1*.
Do you think that was anything other than self interest?
Is it just leaver self interest that is bad, whereas corporate self interest is good?
At least people have souls, emotions and ethics. (Wait - that's not right. At least most people have souls, emotions and ethics? At least some people have souls, emotions and ethics?).
Turn it around. What does Toyota want for you? B'all.


(followed by a paranoid fantasy ending with winky faces)

Dunno what to say. Grow a pair and stop being such a scaredy cat?


"Pretty much"? Yeah, now you mention it - I distinctly remember reading about laws being passed to ensure "racial purity".
It's also uncanny how we also have a charismatic leader who commands personal loyalty from the citizens.
I must have imagined those potholes this morning, what with all the autobahns we're building.
Get a grip. You make remainers sound hysterical - leave that to leavers.

* ratios of 16:3:1, Remain: Don't know: Leave

"Business that favoured remain outnumbered those who wanted to leave by 16 to 1*. Do you think that was anything other than self interest?" Fair point, but I think there's a significant difference between business interest (which you refer to) and personal/political interest. With the 'personal' interests of Banks and Bannon (and, by implication, those who campaign with their agenda - Johnson, Farage, Mogg etc) there comes a right-wing agenda of deregulation, capitalism-comes-first, low-tax, survival of the fittest; all these individuals favour - to some degree or other - privatisation of the NHS for example. Mogg 'worries' about the cost of the NHS but would fight against increased taxes to finance it, and would instead expect the growing economy to do so instead (well that's unlikely under a hard one, isn't it?). Tax cuts tax cuts tax cuts - that's the Leave-driver's mantra.

I am talking about Trump's ideology over here. I personally don't want that for this country or my kids.

"Get a grip. You make remainers sound hysterical - leave that to leavers." Ok, I'll try and calm down - it ain't happening imminently.

Can you answer me straight, btiw2 - is this Brexit move bolstering the alt-right agenda across Europe? Is it giving succour to the far-right populist nationalist parties across Europe? Does it risk ultimately destroying the European Union (as the u-s have said they want)? And, if the EU were to fall apart, what sort of parties would take control in each country - liberal or nationalist? Would you be concerned about this, especially in countries like Poland & Hungary and the more recent arrivals from the eastern block (all with Russian backing) and Germany (who the hell needs backing...)?

(Yes. Yes. Yes - starting with the UK itself. The latter - almost no doubt. No idea, but I hope 'yes'.)

Is this fantasy? Is Europe incapable of this again?! Of course it is - you need look no fuhrer than Bosnia a little over 20 years ago. Lovely Christian folk*.


Whether this is hysterical lunacy from me or not, the cult of 'Leave' which includes the u-s on here care not a jot about this; it does not feature at all in their thinking or consideration. Neither does it in the vast majority of those of the British public who voted that way. Never crossed their mind.

I think this is frightening ignorance. They'd probably call me hysterical.


* Lol - Like father like son
Evstafiev-bosnia-serbs-boy.jpg
 
We don’t want to destroy the EU. Heaven knows, Junckers, Barnier etc are doing a good enough job of that already. We don’t like what the EU has become, we want it to revert to the trading club it was in the 70’s. We certainly don’t want to be ruled by the EU in matters of sovereignty and British law. We don’t want them becoming the increasingly control hungry beast it is fast becoming. We don’t want France and Germany dictating monetary policy for the whole of Europe. But as always, you just can’t see what the EU is becoming ( or do see what it is becoming, but bury your head in the sand, much preferring that the U.K. is ruled by the EU )
 
Proving that you can't spell hyperbole without BORE.

We certainly don’t want to be ruled by the EU in matters of sovereignty and British law.
You aren't. See these: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga
They are acts of parliament. That's why we have a parliament and a house of lords.

Yes, there exist supranational legal entities. We'll still be bound by those after leaving the EU.
The WTO is supranational. The international court of justice is too.
A while back Filly carefully explained to you that there's no such thing as absolute sovereignty.

Or just give some examples of how the EU has "ruled" you.

We don’t want them becoming the increasingly control hungry beast it is fast becoming.
What is this? Diet posting? Twice the rhetoric but with 0% facts?
You know that trying to sound like a politician sounds daft when you're not one (it even sounds daft if you are a politician).

We don’t want France and Germany dictating monetary policy for the whole of Europe.
We aren't in the Eurozone. Surely anybody can see why those counties which a common currency need common fiscal rules (even if they don't always obey them!).

But as always, you just can’t see what the EU is becoming ( or do see what it is becoming, but bury your head in the sand, much preferring that the U.K. is ruled by the EU )
Luckily we have you here, our prescient sage, to guide us.
Note: I'm not saying that I AM prescient. I'll admit that I don't know what the future holds - but I still think that people wearing sandwich boards telling me that the "end of the world is nigh" are crackers.

JJ (and AS) - This is all noise and no signal. Please, please, please quit the am-dram and we might be able to have a conversation about the actual draft agreement.
 
We don’t want to destroy the EU. Heaven knows, Junckers, Barnier etc are doing a good enough job of that already. We don’t like what the EU has become, we want it to revert to the trading club it was in the 70’s. We certainly don’t want to be ruled by the EU in matters of sovereignty and British law. We don’t want them becoming the increasingly control hungry beast it is fast becoming. We don’t want France and Germany dictating monetary policy for the whole of Europe. But as always, you just can’t see what the EU is becoming ( or do see what it is becoming, but bury your head in the sand, much preferring that the U.K. is ruled by the EU )


JJ I've no idea what your on about.



:):):)
 
You aren't. See these: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga
They are acts of parliament. That's why we have a parliament and a house of lords.
Ahh, that explains exactly how the EU has told/ ordered Italy to rethink their budget then. Italy (last time I looked had their own government too. Please explain how the EU can interfere with a sovereign countries own internal affairs, the way they are doing.
 
JJ I've no idea what your on about.



:):):)
Very good IIR, wonder if DA and his cronies think this was staged (probably some foreign actor luvvy paid out of EU funds) Love the statement "The only way out of this crisis is for member states to transfer even more power over to the EU." (although you could change power for money and it'll still make sense to the EU) You couldn't make it up could you. And still the blind can't see.
 
Ahh, that explains exactly how the EU has told/ ordered Italy to rethink their budget then. Italy (last time I looked had their own government too. Please explain how the EU can interfere with a sovereign countries own internal affairs, the way they are doing.
No JJ, the bit you quoted doesn’t explain it. This bit does.

We aren't in the Eurozone. Surely anybody can see why those counties which a common currency need common fiscal rules (even if they don't always obey them!).

This is like trying to explain apostrophes again. A hopeless task. Here goes:

They share a currency. They agree to rules.

Eight words.

When/if we fall into WTO rules we’ll have to abide by them. No country is truly 100% sovereign.

I’m sorry I couldn’t find a short YouTube clip to explain it.
 
No response to the pic I posted above?

Is it not harrowing? Chilling?

It's far too easy to find graphic photos from wars, and the Bosnian conflict would be no exception filled as it was with acts of unbelievable cruelty, perpetrated against folk who were, until then, their neighbours. Often folk they said 'hello' to in the street.

The reality of war is not of 'good' 'clean' killing, but rape, murder, genocide, burning alive, torture, separation of families; they follow a pattern as seen in Rohingya and Rwanda.

Make no mistake that these wars are necessarily over for good - Mladić and Karadžić are still considered heroes over there by many Serbians, and their 'means' considered entirely justified. Intense hatred - on both sides - is rife, which is no great surprise.

When a loving Serb commander can embrace his smiling teenage son whilst jokingly holding a gun to his head, I think it's pretty clear what's going on - that child will be desensitised and dehumanised towards his father's enemies, and that's the first step - 'dehumanise' the other side, call them excrement, consider them all untrustworthy, see them as different to your tribe.

Are some of the u-s on here ready to commit genocide? I'd hope not. Not in their every day lives, 'least not... Unless they were given the circumstances.

There are two types of people.

In 1930's German it was those who were 'only carrying out orders' for survival - many of whom worked to counter it if they could - and those who embraced it.
 
This does bear reading. It might be hysteria. It might be hyper-bore. It might be pie in the sky.

But I really think we should just be aware of the possibility of what's going on with some Hard-Leavers. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/20/hard-right-brexit-tory-revolution-no-deal-eu

(I haven't even read it all myself, yet, but I suspect I know the gist.)

For hard-right revolutionaries, Brexit is cover for a different end
Polly_Toynbee,_L.png

Polly Toynbee
A group of extremists within the Tory party would welcome the havoc unleashed by ‘no deal’ to advance their cause




‘Dominic Raab currently leads the betting to take over from May. Since coming into parliament in 2010, he has worked unstintingly for this day.’ Photograph: Andrew Parsons/REX/Shutterstock
The vultures circle a wounded prime minister, who is attacked by the hordes of extremists in her party while beset by new inconvenient facts daily exposing the damage Brexit can do. Look, the British army is preparing for the worst: emergency troops are at the ready. Operation Temperer, which usually provides soldiers for terrorist attacks, is now ordered to make 10,000 soldiers available to keep order on the streets and in shops, and to distribute emergency medicines in case of a no-deal crash-out.

“Our firms are spending hundreds of millions of pounds preparing for the worst case – and not one penny of it will create new jobs or new products,” warns the Confederation of British Industry chief, Carolyn Fairbairn.



The UK chamber of shipping talks of long delays at ports for pharmaceuticals and 40% of our food. The Financial Times reports a large Japanese pharmaceutical company in the UK shifting licences for 60 of its medicines to Germany: it will have to throw away any British-made drugs for export left over after 29 March. Desperate to keep contracts for the Galileo navigation system, Surrey Satellite Technology is moving its security-sensitive contracts to elsewhere in the EU. Every day brings new evidence of damage.

The exasperated chief executive of the UK Chamber of Shipping, Bob Sanguinetti, says: “Those hoping for a no-deal Brexit have a duty to explain in technical detail why this risk is worth taking.” No wonder he finds all this incomprehensible: why is there all this self-induced chaos with no war, terror, epidemic or natural disaster?

What few realise is that we are living through a revolution that has been a long time brewing among Tory party entryists. Those clawing to dethrone Theresa May are of a different ilk, only just within a recognisable Tory penumbra. Infiltrators, bent on destroying from within the party that harbours them, inhabit another planet from Heath, Clarke or Heseltine – but nor are they Thatcher’s children, either. Leaving Europe is only a part of their revolutionary project, a means not an end. Because they are revolutionaries, the more dramatic the break and the wilder the chaos, the better. They are bent on the creative destruction of a stagnant old order, so as to plough up the ground for a fertile new radical right beginning. Tax-haven Singapore beckons.

There is a (mercifully small) handful of leftwing Brexiters who talk the same way: the old order was bad, so bring on mayhem from which a new utopia can flourish. For both red and blue revolutionaries, any Brexit harm – bound to hurt the vulnerable – is only collateral damage in a greater cause.

The recently resigned Brexit secretary Dominic Raab currently leads the betting to take over from May. Since coming into parliament in 2010, he has worked unstintingly for this day. Maybe his ministerial promotion came later than some MPs’ because his seniors could see that glint in his eye: a bit of a loner, he belongs nonetheless to a coterie of the likeminded.


Their seminal work in 2012 was Britannia Unchained, written with other 2010 young turks, Liz Truss, Kwasi Kwarteng, Priti Patel and Chris Skidmore. They belong to the much larger – 40 or so – Free Enterprise Group of MPs, sponsored by the Institute of Economic Affairs, which handles their media. (The IEA is under investigation by the Charity Commission after a Guardian/Greenpeace investigation into US cash for ministerial access and Brexit campaigning.)

The group’s website boasts of meeting a former chancellor before budgets to make proposals, “a number of which became policy”. Truss failed to get through her radical deregulation of childminders, or selling off national forests, but her fervour for slashing the state was in high demand at Tory conference fringe meetings.

This cadre is so much more extreme than Thatcherism that they iconoclastically dismiss her era. “The last 30 years of public debate have been dominated by leftwing thinking,” says their book, which gained notoriety for its most famous line: “British workers are the worst idlers in the world” who “prefer a lie-in to hard work”. With that, they blamed low UK productivity on the workforce, not on a failure to invest.

Their dominant theme is “private-good, public-malign”. As with all revolutionaries, evidence is not the point. They castigate the Labour years of public spending growth, pointing to “private productivity rising by 2.3% a year while public sector productivity declined by 0.3%”. What’s wrong with that? If you add nurses to wards and teachers to classrooms then public productivity falls by their crude measure: both NHS and education success rates rose.



They protest at public servants better paid than private – an old rightwing trope that ignores the highly qualified, professionalised nature of most public jobs, compared with a heavy preponderance of low-pay, low-qualification jobs in the private workforce. Raab wanted to screw down the 1% public pay cap more tightly.

In his paper Weight Watchers For Whitehall, he calls for abolishing half the 20 government departments, including International Development, Business, Culture, and the “pointless government Equalities Office”. Browse his essay collection Britain, Tomorrow: the Case for Free Enterprise, Meritocracy and Liberty and you find his views on cutting worker protection and the minimum wage, for “no-fault dismissal” and tax cuts for the better off: “Middle-class Peter should not be robbed to pay working-class Paul.” Boris Johnson’s foreword calls it “a blistering collection”.

On meritocracy, free schools should select as grammar schools do, which would “drive up standards in other schools”. How can you fail to admire the sheer evidence-free effrontery? “In Britain there has been too great a tendency to attribute results to fortune and background.” Evidence abounds to show how much more closely British children’s success is matched to parental incomes than in other EU countries.

The great Brexit rift is a war for the nation’s soul between a radical revolutionary right and a social democracy very much under threat. The right used immigration to capture votes, but Brexit was always a proxy for a deeper project.

Raab says no deal would be a “manageable situation”. Yes, they would find it useful. Just as David Cameron and George Osborne used the cover of the great crash to roll out their state-shrinking agenda, so Raab and his Free Enterprise Group would use Brexit havoc to take a yet more radical axe to the state.

• Polly Toynbee is a Guardian columnist
 
No response to the pic I posted above?

Is it not harrowing? Chilling?

It's far too easy to find graphic photos from wars, and the Bosnian conflict would be no exception filled as it was with acts of unbelievable cruelty, perpetrated against folk who were, until then, their neighbours. Often folk they said 'hello' to in the street.

The reality of war is not of 'good' 'clean' killing, but rape, murder, genocide, burning alive, torture, separation of families; they follow a pattern as seen in Rohingya and Rwanda.

Make no mistake that these wars are necessarily over for good - Mladić and Karadžić are still considered heroes over there by many Serbians, and their 'means' considered entirely justified. Intense hatred - on both sides - is rife, which is no great surprise.

When a loving Serb commander can embrace his smiling teenage son whilst jokingly holding a gun to his head, I think it's pretty clear what's going on - that child will be desensitised and dehumanised towards his father's enemies, and that's the first step - 'dehumanise' the other side, call them excrement, consider them all untrustworthy, see them as different to your tribe.

Are some of the u-s on here ready to commit genocide? I'd hope not. Not in their every day lives, 'least not... Unless they were given the circumstances.

There are two types of people.

In 1930's German it was those who were 'only carrying out orders' for survival - many of whom worked to counter it if they could - and those who embraced it.
Look at the population pyramids for 1930s Germany and 1990s Yugoslavia and you'll see a different proportion of young people to that of an aged Britain.

Let's couple that with the fact that it is the elderly who are statistically more likely to be right wing, and you've the makings of a sitcom, not a Reich.

Goose stepping on mobility scooters.
Less Sieg Heil, more Se-nile.
Sniper Alley becomes less chilling when the projectiles are Werthers' originals (Werther's? Was it Herr Werther or Werthers?).
The manifesto won't call for the uprising of the master race; it'll be a badly punctuated letter to the Telegraph asking why there are so many coloured people on Coronation Street. "Why... oh... WHY CAN'T WE call... them... gollies any...more?!!!"

--------
Mark this as "exhibit R" in Ageism Awareness vs BTIW2.
Can I ask for my other cases to be taken into consideration?
 
I think there's a very valid point to be made that many (most?) of those who have driven the Brexit vote did so for their very own personal ideological agendas, which is not shared - or even understood - by the vast majority who voted for it. They knew what buttons to press - largely, fear of immigrants - and did this effectively (if you are an idiot and wanted to believe the BS).

I totally stand by my belief that a vast proportion of the Leave electorate are very ignorant, ill-informed and - frankly - pretty stupid. Not to be trusted with such a major constitutional decision.
 
You've taken to that strategy like a duck to water, DA.
"Two types"?

Who on here call which whole group 'excrement'? Who on here referred to a whole people as 'never to be trusted'?

And where were you?
 
Who on here call which whole group 'excrement'? Who on here referred to a whole people as 'never to be trusted'?

And where were you?
Who are these "two types"?
Two tribes go to war?
What's your tribe called, and who are you at war with?
 
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