lighting connections, is this ok?

Discussion in 'Electricians' Talk' started by Sparks., May 26, 2020.

  1. Sparks.

    Sparks. Member

    I have to conceal connections in a 25mm ceiling void. They need to be maintenance free, as non accessible once plasterboard ceiling is up. The light fittings only have space/capacity for one wire so cannot loop in in the conventional way. Also cannot go into loft space above as the ceiling is airtight layer. Haven't been able to find a suitable jb to fit in the space, so considering the method as in pic. Seems alien to me not to have connections in a box but is there actually anything wrong with doing it like this? wago.jpg
     
  2. ginger tuffs

    ginger tuffs Screwfix Select

    with a name of sparks you should be telling us what to do :D
     
    JP7 and Jord86 like this.
  3. Those wago's connections need to be in a suitable Wagobox to be classed as maintenance free, as they are now they are not MF. If space is a bit tight and you cant use the wagobox as recommended then use a hager J803 /J804 or similar MF junction box.
     
  4. DIYDave.

    DIYDave. Screwfix Select

    8BF607FF-15C2-467B-8C7B-4C4C0CB7F503.jpeg Yes that’s wrong

    And sorry (not sorry really) I’m only diy

    Wagos (and similar) need to be in an enclosure to be MF

    The humble choc box is around 22mm high and will satisfy requirements I believe
     
  5. Sparks.

    Sparks. Member


    The J803, and all others I've looked at come in way over 25mm.
     
    powerst likes this.
  6. Sparks.

    Sparks. Member

    Thanks, this may be an option, assuming the wago's actually fit inside! As it is, technically, the wago's will be in an enclosure, albeit one made of plasterboard ;-)
     
  7. FlyByNight

    FlyByNight Screwfix Select

    The J803/4 is only 29mm so not way over. Similarly a Wagobox light is 29mm.

    Using Wago connectors in a Choc box is not MF.

    There is another box, although I dont like them: Debox 2SL which is MF but 27mm
     
  8. Sparks.

    Sparks. Member

    Yes I've tried the Debox, and I can see why you don't like them, and they are too big. So basically, a box of 25mm or under doesn't appear to exist.
     
  9. DIYDave.

    DIYDave. Screwfix Select


    Hi Mike

    I did say I’m diy and also on suggesting the choc box, I said I ‘believe’ will satisfy regs

    So it has cable restraints at both ends

    Lid needs a tool (screwdriver) to remove it

    Encloses terminations

    Can be fixed to timber joist, etc

    Only asking so I know, why doesn’t a choc box comply - thanks

    ps. Isn’t the Debox basically a choc box but a little better engineered ?

    Ok, it comes with MF connectors and the lid and cable grips are tool free but apart from that - it’s a choc box no ?
     
  10. Bazza

    Bazza Screwfix Select

    The Wago connectors and box are only certified as MF When they are used together as an assembly.

    just getting Wagos and putting them in any other enclosure does not comply with BS 5733-MF.
    All details on the Wago web site.
     
  11. Sparks.

    Sparks. Member

    Clearly a product does not exist to fit the situation here. I'm quite happy that they're safe as they are enclosed within an inaccessible ceiling void. In safety terms I'm not sure what extra protection a plastic enclosure with an MF sticker would provide. I s'pose in situations like this we have to use our best judgement and list on the cert as a departure from BS7671.
     
  12. Do the job properly. If you cannot get two or three cables into the fittings and a correct junction box will not fit you need to think about alternative ways do do the job properly.
    Mount a junction box or adaptable box in a cupboard, then run cables from that to each individual light, more cable but the job is done correctly.
     
  13. Sparks.

    Sparks. Member

    Easy for you to say, but what if there is no cupboard? What if you cannot get into the space above without breaching the airtight barrier? What if by running all those extra cables through a 25mm battened surface creates far more danger of cables being pierced by the plasterboard fixings? Does this method tick all the 'done job properly' boxes? Doesn't this method create more potential danger than the alternative?
     
    JP7 likes this.
  14. Comlec

    Comlec Screwfix Select

    @sparks do as you think best to comply after all it will be you signing the cert. @Deleted member 11267 would like us all to work to an idyllic standard, which he is the sole arbiter from the comfort of his keyboard. The rest of just give advice which you are free to use as you wish.
     
  15. Slate away all you like comlec, without seeing the job no one can comment fully. I gave a way how it could be done. This job screams of no planning, thinking or discussion on how the job should have or could have been done, just wire it and then think oh! dear I have a problem.

    I work the way I do comlec, which if not bodging does not agree with your standards, then so be it.
     
  16. Comlec

    Comlec Screwfix Select

    @Deleted member 11267 not slating just an observation based on your many posts. Always a bit too quick to criticise but a bit light on helpful links or diagrams.
    Now, I have to get back to work sorting out someone else’s not quite so perfect installation, so it will comply with the regulations.
    If I need help I’ll be sure to give you a call.

    Don’t let the pursuit of perfection drive out the good.


    Have a good day
     
    Bogle Crag and Sparks. like this.
  17. DIYDave.

    DIYDave. Screwfix Select

    If I can ask a question to the pro Sparks here please as would really like to know for myself and learn something new today ?

    As a diy’er :)eek:) I butted into this post and suggested using a choc box as an enclosure for Wagos, mainly as they come in under 25mm height which is the max gap the OP has

    Ok, I know these are very basic, probably more diy than pro, overpriced for what they are perhaps, and a Dragons Den wet dream ;) but, I would really like to understand why they don’t comply when using Wagos in making the installation maintenance free

    Bazza kindly pointed out the relevant BS numbers and details on the Wago site and I’ve taken a look and it does indeed state that Wagos need to be in a Wagobox to comply as a MF instal (or words to that effect)

    Could this not just be a ploy by Wago to sell more Wagoboxes !

    Never used one myself but can see the design is far more clever than the humble choc box, more robust, better looking, has more features, better constructed, etc. It sure looks like a well designed product

    But in terms of what ‘extra’ it offers to make the instal MF, what is it in real terms over than what the choc box offers - that’s what I don’t get (probably as I’m a diy’er :))

    I ‘though’, and clearly I’m wrong here that a MF junction box has to offer;

    Cord restraints
    Use of a tool to open lid
    Method of being fixed to joist, etc
    And er ...... ?

    Would really like to understand the difference please guys for my own knowledge (be it limited)

    All the other Wago type, MF connectors, of which there’s now loads, do they also only comply if used with an enclosure of same brand ?

    On a side note - the Wago type connectors at T.Stn ....,, how does the manufacturer get away with such a rip off design clearly based on Wagos when you even use the same colour scheme as grey and orange - talk about blatant copying !

    Thanks for your time and hopefully, enlightenment :)
     
    candoabitofmoststuff likes this.
  18. Sparks.

    Sparks. Member

    Dave, the only difference is the lack of the right sticker/mark confirming they reach the relevant requirements as set out in the regulations. Common sense would dictate that the wago connectors will be absolutely fine in this box, posing no extra hazards whatsoever. I've been working within this trade for over 20 years, plus another 10 for my 'less than qualified' years! I'm now in it part time, having diversified over recent years. Consequently I'm not always up to date on the latest products and techniques, hence my question here aimed at those who are. Of course there are those who are sticklers for the rules, or the way they have interpreted them, but perhaps these tradesmen have not always had the experience of working on unusual and less than run of the mill builds. I find them enjoyably challenging, but every so often compromises and common sense have to trump BS7671 and all its ambiguities :)
     
    DIYDave. likes this.
  19. FlyByNight

    FlyByNight Screwfix Select

    Wago DO NOT make Wagoboxes - they are designers and produced by ConnexBox

    The alternative is a J803/804 from Ashley/Hager/Rock - they make the box and assemble them with Wago connectors.
     
  20. Sparkielev

    Sparkielev Screwfix Select

    Can you cut a 20mm hole in the fitting and fit a grommet and then feed your cables through
     

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