Local Isolation Question

Discussion in 'Electricians' Talk' started by J.P., Aug 16, 2013.

  1. J.P.

    J.P. New Member

    Afternoon ladies and gentlemen..:) Right instead of putting a local isolator in an adjacent cabinet - is it ok to put said in a cabinet above the appliance?

    What I want to do is put a local isolator in the cabinet above my built in microwave, and also I want to do this with other stuff (excluding oven/hob which is done as standard). Cheers lads..:)
     
  2. joinerjohn1

    joinerjohn1 Screwfix Select

    I can't see a problem with that JP. If the cabinet's above the microwave, then technically, it's an adjacent cabinet. (isn't it??) ;)
     
  3. unphased

    unphased Screwfix Select

    It is pointless putting in a local isolator for a M/W JP. Just put a socket behind it. You can drag it out of the housing to pull the plug.
     
  4. FatHands

    FatHands Well-Known Member

    Can't see why not JP although i know a lot of people avoid them where possible as its nicer to see tiles than an isolater (and stuff a socket out of the way).

    On the subject of isolaters, is something like this rated at 10Amp OK to stick on the ring side of things - i.e the contacts up to the full potential of the ring? I know the 10Amp rating is for the switching side of things, but wanted to check about the contacts.

    Cheers
    Fats
     
  5. J.P.

    J.P. New Member

    Hi Un. To get rid of unsightly FCU's above worktop I originally put all local isolation behind the appliances which included the microwave - ie socket behind built in washing machine and fridge etc etc - however when I had my inspection on first fix the chap said that I must be able to isolate without pulling machines out which meant putting isolators in the cabinets (cabinets are not fitted yet but all isolator positions placed) to make it easy I just designed it so the isolators went in the wall cabs at the various positions which meant the isolator for the microwave ended up directly above it in the cabinet .

    The company who are inspecting my work are a good bunch and I have no probs with them..so no problems on that score. After first fix consulation the chap siad I could just get on with it so I am bound to do what they say - which is right, and the way it should be.

    Cheers Un.
     
  6. J.P.

    J.P. New Member

    Hi Fats and thanks. Myself I would not fit that into the ring - either it would go onto 1mm or 1.5 normally 3c +e - but no more.
     
  7. J.P.

    J.P. New Member

    Thanks JJ. Probaly worrying over nothing - but elecrtrics have got a lot stricter recently - no bad thing, its the way it should be.

    Thanks once again JJ, and I can carry on.
     
  8. FatHands

    FatHands Well-Known Member

    Hiya,
    yeah I believe that is the official building stance on it (green book).

    as for isolator - thanks both for confirming.

    have a good chill/prosperous weekend,

    fats
     
  9. snezza31

    snezza31 New Member

    I never put sockets or any form of isolation behind appliances in a fitted kitchen.

    The way I look at it is, I cant expect a customer to start lifting/dragging them out to change a fuse or turn them off, for example.

    Either put the isolation in an adjacent cabinet or, if you have no other option, a FCU above the worktop. I try and avoid this option if possible, as a few others have said, it can look poor with a lot of FCU's dotted around everywhere.

    Snezza.
     
  10. unphased

    unphased Screwfix Select

    I really wish there was a definitive answer to this question. There are so many different views and viewpoints, but no official guidance it would seem. In my fairly short time in this industry, mainly in the domestic sector, I have seen many variants to this. The first question to ask is why would you need to isolate an appliance? The main substance of the ensuing answer seems to be solely that you can't access the socket behind an appliance. All appliances have their own on/off switch. So to turn the appliance off you just hit the on/off switch. Remember also that we are not talking about emergency switching, that is a completely different matter and none of the switches being discussed in this context are for emergency. The only time you would need to access a socket is to physically unplug the appliance. There is no other requirement to access it. It makes sense, then, from a convenience point of view, to not put sockets behind an appliance that is heavy or awkward to move. But even with a socket that IS located behind an appliance and it DOES have a separate switch you still have to pull the appliance out to physically unplug it, whether its isolated or not. I think that many of the differences of opinion and variety in views is based on the wrong assumption that the isolator switch is necessary simply because the socket is not easy to get to. So what! The appliance needs an energy source so a socket needs to be provided. Where the socket goes is purely a matter of convenience, or reducing inconvenience. The popular choice to put a socket in an adjacent cupboard is for the convenience of being able to get to the socket easily. But the cupboard can often be stuffed full of products and kitchen equipment so it still needs to be emptied out to a degree making it awkward to get to the socket. Purely an incovenience issue. So to get to the point, if the need to get to the socket is for emergency purposes then it is the wrong reason. It is NOT for emergency. In an emergency you shut the power off at the fuseboard. The convenience issue then really doesn't matter whether an isolator is fitted or not. The socket still needs to be accessed to unplug the appliance. It doesn't need to isolated before you do that. The matter of integrated appliances is perhaps more straightforward in that you cannot physically install a socket immediately behind it simply because of the restriction on space at the back. The appliance is almost touching the rear of the cupboard when installed so it is not possible to plug the appliance in and push it far enough back. This is where the need to put the socket next to it in an adjacent cupboard comes about, not for any other reason. Ultimately the addition of an isolator is purely a matter of choice and clearly people will have their own reason (misguided or otherwise) for doing so, but lets face it it, is not an essential requirement, nor is it an emergency requirement. Remember there is aleways the option to turn the circuit off to isolate anything regardless of how many other islators are fitted. Maybe all the arguments are from misunformation and unclear reasoning. I certainly don't think it si a requirenment to fit isolators at all, for the logical reasons I put forward. Do whatever you like it matters not.

    EDIT: As an afterthought, isolators, such as switches or switched fused spurs, are necessary where an appliance is hard wired ie an electrical appliance where there is no plug and socket involved. Classically ovens, hobs, hoods fall in to this category. If there is no plug then the isolator must be used, but the reason is obvious in this situation.
     
  11. seneca

    seneca Screwfix Select

    I had a little discussion about this on my recent annual nic assessment. I'd put a new circuit into a utility room, two single socket outlets on a dual backbox and situated them behind the washing machine and tumble dryer, both of which are free-standing. The assessor commented on this saying that he didn't consider them accessible, I said that as they're free-standing and could be pulled out I consider them to be accessible! He didn't put up much of an argument and didn't note is as a non-compliance on my report.
     
  12. joinerjohn1

    joinerjohn1 Screwfix Select

    I've just invented (and patented) remote control FCU's JP. Controlled by a new app (available for android and osx smartphones) All you do, is install the RCFCU, in a convenient location, download the app, then set it to search for compatible devices. Once it's found the device, you have to set a password (at least 12 digits/letter long, coz security is an important feature) (ya dunna want yer neighbours switchin off yer microwave half way through heating up a Pot Noodle now). You can then push 4 icons on your smartphone, whilst holding the camera of the phone to your eye (Iris recognition technology, another very important security feature) Once you've done that, you have to speak into the phone to tell it to switch off the FCU (voice recognition software providing yet another level of security )
    All in all a highly secure and useful invention , I reckon,,, and a boon to aspiring electricians/IT buffs everywhere. Soon to be available from Tesco,  Asda, Curry's and B&M stores.

    PS, I forgot to add, when you tell the smartphone to turn off the FCU, you'll then be asked a random security question, which only you know the answer to. (Like your credit card number and pin, or your bank account details (including sort code) Only once you have answered this security question and the answer checked,  will the smartphone turn off all power from the FCU. ;)
     
  13. DiggerB

    DiggerB New Member

    Well what you could do is install (off the ringmain/radial) sockets switched or unswitched or flex outlet plates behind or at best under the worktop etc, these are then controlled isolated from a Double pole switch (if controlling a socket) or a Switched fuse spur which is situated in an accessible position ,as in above the worktop or outside a cupboard or whatever,,,some people are now installing banks of switch's in one position to control all the appliances in such places as kitchens and or utility rooms,,,(bank of double pole switch's) Grid type,,which might look like light switch's for example...as long as its done inline with the regs,,,,it does not matter if the immediate point of connection is accessible,,,as long as the means of isolation is readily accessible,, basicaly each appliance should have its own isolating switch,,,,isolating it/them by simply turning off the MCB/RCBO or removing a fuse is not Acceptable...
     
  14. Lokkars Daisy

    Lokkars Daisy New Member

    You are quite right Unphased. It is not necessary to have a switch in a readily accessible position for the purpose of isolating a domestic appliance , apart from a cooker which requires one within 2m.
    For example a washing machine which has a socket behind it can be easily isolated at the consumer unit .
    Your inspector JP was obviously confused in his thinking .
     
  15. J.P.

    J.P. New Member

    I dunno really LD - didn't take long for me to re arrange the cabling as all from ceiling so no probs. If I ever did it again I think I would use a gridswitch in the utility room, or even in the intake cupboard and feed the appliances off of this..excepting cooker/hob obviously.

    No probs though because at least the local isolators wont be clagging up my tiling thank goodness -
     
  16. DiggerB

    DiggerB New Member

    Sorry but you are wrong,, you cannot simply isolate an appliance by turning off at the Consumer Unit,,,,think about it,,,what else would you be turning off that needs not to be turned off??? consideration for others and other appliances (Computers etc)  each appliance should have its own means of isolation....what you going to do have the cables coming out the wall straight into the appliance???? Probably not (although it wouldnt surprise me by some of the things I see and read on here) so why not put an isolating switch at the point of connection?? Common sense in the first instance maybe???
     
  17. unphased

    unphased Screwfix Select

    Of course you can. I want to know the basis of all the arguments about it. Nobody, including you, has yet given a valid reason why it is necessary to have a point of isolation added to a circuit for an applaince. On what basis are you requiring it? Working safely on a circuit always requires the circuit to be isolated. If you need to isolate the appliance for a short time whilst you work on it then its no different to doing that if you are working on a circuit. its interesting that people make up their own rules and instigate debates based on misinformation. Read my post above and you will see that I can see no basis for a separate isolator for an appliance. I am interested to know why you think it is necessary to go to all the lengths of putting in isolators for appliances and perhaps you can quote a reg that we can all look at to justify all this. If you want to do it then fine. It is not a requirement to do it. To make a debate you first need a reason. If you cannot give a reason there is no basis for debate.
     
  18. snezza31

    snezza31 New Member

    In the majority of situations, this problem tends to be mainly in a Kitchen or Utility room.

    As such, everyone tends to look at the problem from his own perspective. Whether that be the Electrician, the Kitchen Fitter or the end user/client.
    Now the electrician wants to do the job to the Regs, as does the kitchen fitter but he also has to take into account what the finished job is going to look like and how the client is going to get on when using the room on a day by day basis.

    I cannot, with a clear conscience, expect a client to start taking their Kitchen and utility room apart to isolate appliances or change a fuse in a FCU or 13a Plugtop. No matter whether it is a small Microwave or a large Fridge/Freezer, Washing Machine etc, etc.

    I regularly have to do drawings for electricians showing the position of isolating switches in a kitchen. The majority of the time, I will stipulate that I need a Bottom Exit, Flex Outlet Plate behind ANY appliance, which is isolated via a FCU or a Grid switch.

    I have lost count how many times I have turned up on site to start the Kitchen fit, and instead of the Flex outlet plates, they have used switched or unswitched single sockets. ITS IN BLACK AND WHITE ON THE SPEC DRAWIINGS.............But NO NO NO NO!!!!!!! They know best!!!!!!

    Even if there was enough room behind the appliance to use a Single socket (there rarely is.......!!!!!) are some people seriously suggesting that a little old lady and gentleman or anyone come to that, should be expected to start dragging and lifting and unscrewing appliances to change a friggin fuse......????????

    Come on Guys, lets live in the real world and apply the rules and regulations as they should be, of course. But it has to be practical; and "User Friendly".

    Snezza (Kitchen Fitter and Electrician)
     
  19. Lokkars Daisy

    Lokkars Daisy New Member

    It boils down to good practice, but there is no requirement to provide readily accessible isolators for kitchen appliances. An appliance can be isolated at the consumer unit, yes it's not ideal.
    Flex outlet plates do solve the lack of space problem but they are not ideal either , requiring the appliances to be connected up to the plate and again disconnected if the appliance needs to be removed.
    The electrician can usually finish his work completely if he uses socket outlets for the appliances, but if he uses flex outlet plates he will often have to return to connect up the appliances.
    I don't see the little old lady having to drag out a heavy appliance to change the fuse. If the fuse blows then there is a fault with the appliance, the repair man will drag the appliance out.
     
  20. snezza31

    snezza31 New Member

    I see....!

    So what you are saying then LD, is that the Electrician is doing the job so that it suits HIM rather than the customer. If he fits Socket outlets rather than Flex outlets, he will have no need to return and put himself out? The fact that the appliances wont fit in the hole they were supposed to fit into due to lack of depth, is the fitters problem rather than the electrician's?
    Still, he doesnt care, he has'nt got to come back!

    Any Fitter worth his salt, is perfectly capable of connecting an appliance to a Flex outlet plate. Its not exactly difficult, is it?

    You can probably tell just how frustrating I have found this situation over the years, and there just does not seem to be a perfect answer to it.

    Snezza.
     

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