NICEIC v NAPIT

Discussion in 'Electricians' Talk' started by Bando, Jul 14, 2005.

  1. Bando

    Bando Member

    I am still unfortunately losing work due to being registered with NAPIT and not the NICEIC :(
    The LABC asked someone for a PIR before he can rent out his property. He asked me to do it but was told by the council that they will only accept NICEIC. This really annoys me as back 5 years ago i was doing council rewires but was told they did niot require NICEIC certs because they "refused to be held to ransom by the NICEIC"!!
    2 faced or what. Is there anything to stop a LABC demanding NICEIC only? Surely theres a monopolies law on that or something?
     
  2. unphased

    unphased Screwfix Select

    I agree Bando. Unfortunately the NICEIC carry an almost God like status and there is a lot of nonsense going on about it. Periodic inspections don't have to be carried out necessarily by a Part P registered spark.

    UP
     
  3. Beanzy

    Beanzy New Member

    That was the primary decider for me in going as Approved Installer with the NICEIC rather than NAPIT. I reckon you get a better deal and more help from NAPIT, but more business and more access from the NICEIC logo.

    The council can insist on people meeting particular criteria, but they should be opening those up to NAPIT full reg'd inspectors. You can give NAPIT a call and they'll chase up the council in question for you and ensure they broaden their criteria. I went the NICEIC route as my business isn't big enough to take hits like this on the chin while I wait for NAPIT to get 'embedded' in the conciousness of council wallahs. :(
    Being ECA re'd is only barely more recognised on their scope.
     
  4. Reverse Diode

    Reverse Diode New Member

    I spoke to NAPIT man about this yesterday. He said they can not discriminate against schemes. But I still feel that NICEIC has an advantage :(
     
  5. autonull

    autonull New Member

    Cue Rabbit.
     
  6. Beanzy

    Beanzy New Member

    They can specify the approval level for PIR or any other work. This is different to any PartP registration. Being PartP registered with the NICEIC wouldn't have done it either (unless the Council bods weren't paying attention). If they have a NICEIC requirement then that excludes everything else, and unfortunately that's many coouncils position. They argue it as not limiting their contractors to any particular one just to being scrutinised in a proper manner. Unfortunately most don't realise they'd get better and individual scrutiny from NAPIT.
     
  7. Technispark

    Technispark New Member

    Why oh why do people go to Napit and the other also rans instead of the main provider of part P approval who are reputed to be cheaper and have by far the majority of approved part P contractors ( 90% I think) That aside the Part P schemes are all about doing electrical installation work and the commissioning and testing of that work As far as I am aware none of the schemes allows contractors to issue Periodic inspection reports, the NICEIC scheme specifically excluding this category of work
    Periodic inspecting with the need for detailed analysis and a working knowledge of older systems is still the preserve of full ECA and NICEIC members .
    The real advantage of joining the NICEIC scheme is the possibility of later 'graduating ' to full Niceic membership with the ability then to be fully approved for commercial work, fire alarm work and periodic testing among others.
    In fact I do not know why contractors do not just go for full membership to start with.
     
  8. Bando

    Bando Member

    Technispark I have been registered with the NICEIC before. The two reasons i went for NAPIT were:
    1. The NICEIC had a 14 week waiting time for the assessment which i couldn't wait.
    2. The NICEIC is supposed to be a charitable organisation there to protect the public. As thier inspector told me he wasn't there for electricians but to safe guard the public. So how is it that twice i have followed thier complaints procedure against companies that have carried out work and issued a niceic certificate and left houses in a dangerous condition and falsified testing results and yet nothing has been done. In fact the 2 companies are still niceic registered.
     
  9. Rabbit Rabbit

    Rabbit Rabbit New Member

    Fact - NICEIC have been aropund for some 70 years +

    Fact - NIC have the ears of local councils (as a consequence of above) and a LOT of brown envelopes are passed around.

    Fact - There are FIVE registries as assigned by the Gov (ODPM) and all are equal in the eyes of the law. And so any council saying any registry be it NICEIC, NAPIT, ECA, ELECSA or BRE is not acceptable to them is actually breaking the law. It is NOT the same where councils can elect to decide who is acceptable to them or not - it is NOT up to them at all to decide.

    Fact - Time the brown envelopes ended, don't you?

    Give me the name of the council Bando....
     
  10. Bando

    Bando Member

    Caerphilly county borough council. A chap phoned me monday night asking for a PIR coz he wants torent an house out. The council had supplies him with a letter stating that it must be a NICIEC report.
     
  11. Rabbit Rabbit

    Rabbit Rabbit New Member

    Thanks Bando, it now progresses to the next phase....
     
  12. eebad

    eebad New Member

    Fact - NICEIC have been aropund for some 70 years +

    Wrong- NICEIC was set up in 1956

    Fact - NIC have the ears of local councils (as a
    consequence of above) and a LOT of brown envelopes
    are passed around.

    Incorrect analysis- As the first and foremost national council they are bound to be the most recognised among a group of inspection councils, quite obvious. The brown envolopes appear only in your imagination or your local lodge rabbit.

    Fact - There are FIVE registries as assigned by the
    Gov (ODPM) and all are equal in the eyes of the law.
    And so any council saying any registry be it NICEIC,
    NAPIT, ECA, ELECSA or BRE is not acceptable to them
    is actually breaking the law. It is NOT the same
    where councils can elect to decide who is acceptable
    to them or not - it is NOT up to them at all to
    decide.

    Correct- at last, suppose 1 out of three aint too bad.
    But again, as the most recognised inspection council they're bound to get first mention, with the also rans coming in somewhere down the line, and to be honest I've not heard of BRE, so what make you think your local council officer will have?

    Fact - Time the brown envelopes ended, don't you?

    Not Fact, purely fiction

    Give me the name of the council Bando....

    Rabbit to the rescue
     
  13. eebad

    eebad New Member

    Technispark I have been registered with the NICEIC
    before. The two reasons i went for NAPIT were:
    1. The NICEIC had a 14 week waiting time for the
    assessment which i couldn't wait.
    2. The NICEIC is supposed to be a charitable
    organisation there to protect the public. As thier
    inspector told me he wasn't there for electricians
    but to safe guard the public. So how is it that twice
    i have followed thier complaints procedure against
    companies that have carried out work and issued a
    niceic certificate and left houses in a dangerous
    condition and falsified testing results and yet
    nothing has been done. In fact the 2 companies are
    still niceic registered.

    Bando, it's unfortunate that you couldn't afford the time to wait for assesment and no doubt acceptance into Niceic, your already aware of the much greater benefit the niceic logo would bring you.
    On the second point, how do you know nothing was done? In my experience these sort of things are dealt with as follows;
    first report taken, area engineer contacts firm to arrange visit
    Said job is visited and inspected by area engineer and any defects are noted and the contractor is given a set time to sort this out, at thier own expense.
    A revisit and overall assesment of the contracor takes place and, depending on the outcome a period of probation is placed, if the contractor continually has problems then the matter is taken further with expulsion the last resort.

    As you'll understand, a sole trader looking after himself or a couple of employees can keep a good eye on the standard of work going out. But put this in a scenario where you have 20/30 employees and alot of work going on and it's much harder to implement. Then the guys themselves become less bothered about thier standard of work and bad jobs get done, and false readings on the certs. But why should that reflect on the rest of the company, weed the bad eggs out, put in place a system of good work practices and accountability for jobs and the problems should disappear.
    And as long as you serve out your probationary period without default you should be allowed to keep your status intact, not only niceic but napti eca and the others.

    wired
     
  14. Bando

    Bando Member

    On one job the company had been paid to replace a 6mm cooker supply with a 10mm cooker supply. A builder doing some work there questioned the job after noticing some connector blocks. On inspection the existing 6mm had been left in place but cut under the floor boards at both end then jointed to 10mm t&e to come down in trunking to the consumer unit and cooker. They obviously didn't bargain for the boards being lifted. More concerning was the fact they also spurred off the cooker supply for a double socket. The circuit had a 32A MCB. The lady followed the complaints procedure and filled in the forms but after numerous phone calls and a few weeks nothing was done.

    I looked at a job last week where swalec told a woman she didn't need a rewire only an upgrade. They put a 10 way split board in with 3 modules being used. They also took a 10mm earth straight to the boiler for gas and water. They charged £850. They had connected a 6mm cable up and made it live and i found that it was cut off under the floor boards. Yet they filled in R1+R2 values for that circuit and also Zs???? Customer complained to NICEIC and an inspector visited and said SWALEC would come back to put it right.
    They sent a SWALEC inspector back who appologised and said "special deal" they would rewire the 3 bed terraced with barely anything in it for £4500 minus the £850 already paid!!!!!! She is now taking SWALEC to court for damages as the house as been totally replastered and needs rewiring.
     
  15. Rabbit Rabbit

    Rabbit Rabbit New Member

    Wired - we have a prat in our midst (you) I guess you work for NIC.

    And yes Rabbit has already 'gone to the rescue'...

    No Brown envelopes? You really are naive.
     
  16. eebad

    eebad New Member

    Wired - we have a prat in our midst (you) I guess you
    work for NIC.

    And yes Rabbit has already 'gone to the rescue'...

    No Brown envelopes? You really are naive.


    Why don't you defend yourself in a proper manner rather than stoop to petty name calling?
    You see I think it is you who is the prat, the self appointed saviour of electrical contractors everywhere.
    When will you realise that niceic is the recognised name in the industry? Napit and others are out to do the same job but will struggle for many years to overcome the bias shown to niceic, because niceic is the recognised name.
    On the brown envelopes, you may think me naive to think it's not happening, and you too to think Napit aren't doing the same,but in your tiny world I guess money talks. As for me the niceic logo ensures a steady stream of work from blue chip customers for many many moons, while you flounder on the edge fighting over the scraps we don't want.
    And one more note rabbit, don't think all who use this forum think of you as some higher being ( that's all in your head) you're just a jumped up housebasher with a napit inspectors badge.
     
  17. eebad

    eebad New Member

    Bando, they are extreme cases indeed, there is no justification for that standard of work, just unfortunately it was a niceic outfit, but the same standards could easily be going on within Napit , ECA, elecsa or bre, just in this paricular case it's niceic.
    I'm sure you're aware that shoddy workmanship isn't down to niceic, it's down to the contractor and his employees, but through niceic's endeavors this standard of work should be at a minimum ( no I'm not excusing it) .
    Whilst every effort is made to ensure good practice and a safe installation the whole system is open to abuse. Take the yearly assesment, you know when it is, so you guide the inspector to your best jobs, the ones where he'll find least departures, and we all have minor departures, however that's what his job is..to eredicate even those minor departures. ( this assumes you have a medium sized firm with upwards of 6 employees).
    Are you not guilty of ever falsifying even one r1+r2 on a certificate...ever? We are all able to test and with that knowledge you can predict what the values will be on a given circuit most of the time, although not exactly.
    Anyway I could ramble on but I'm sure you get the gist.

    wired
     
  18. Bando

    Bando Member

    Wired i understand what u r saying and have indeed learnt to take an assessor to the "best" jobs ;)
    However when there is such a clear negligence in work creating a danger something serious should be done i.e. a fine or a warning then exclusion. I never and i mean never falsify R1+R2 readings. I learnt my lesson when someone did it in the last company i was with. I was called back to a socket not working. The apprentice had stripped the outer sheath on the 2.5's by twisting over-eagerly then pulling. He had cut into the copper enough to weaken it and when he pshed the socket back both lives had broken off. Now if the QS had tested properly it would have been picked up. Needless to say all sockets were checked and 2 others were found the same. I ALWAYS test properly.
     
  19. eebad

    eebad New Member

    Commendable practice that Bando, but spare a thought for the poor guy who has 30/40/50 or more tests facing him, all identical properties, all wired by his workmates whom he trusts,you can't knock him for throwing the odd one in can you?
    I'm at the moment faced with around 40 tests in occupied houses, not nice ones either, but I endeavour to carry out the test fully and correctly, the saving grace for me is I don't have to rectify the problems I find.

    wired
     
  20. Bando

    Bando Member

    Wired I was testing 3 houses a week on top of house bashing. Trouble was the guys wiring the houses were all family. I wasn't half getting some grief if i found any faults. It was either turn a blind eye or leave so i left and it was the best move.
    I can understand why you "throw the odd one in" but we are all human and make mistakes and thats what the testing is for. I know what it's like being in houses that stink and trying hard not to puke at the site of food thats been thrown behind the settee for the last 6 months. But at the end of the day if they make a mistake and your not gonna test everything you've gotta be prepared to take the blame if anything goes wrong. It's gonna happen to someone somewhere i just hope its not u.
     

Share This Page