Nick Schon

Discussion in 'Just Talk' started by Deleted member 33931, Aug 30, 2017.

  1. The illustrator of numerous children's books.

    I'm really liking this guy.

    I'm struggling to find a single point I disagree with.

    Some examples...

    Is Brexit developing as you expected?

    The public capacity to interpret bad news (such as the falling pound) as good news (“All our exports will be cheaper!”) seems infinite. If we could somehow connect misplaced optimism to the national grid we’d never need to build another nuclear power station.

    I'm surprised the signs of Britain’s disastrous vote have taken such a long time to filter through, but it was always going to take time I guess, and it's starting to happen now. Thousands of EU citizens are moving out of Britain, which they now view as unwelcoming.

    I'm also surprised how deeply entrenched the Leavers lies are and how resilient they are to the truth. Boris Johnson is still in his job. How can that be, after he campaigned on the “£350m a week more for the NHS” lie? How come Mrs May hasn't been skewered for insisting half the foreign students coming to the UK to study overstay their visas, when the true figure is 3%? Is believing lies our new national sport? If so, we deserve a gold at the next Olympics.

    I'm surprised with the zeal the Tories are showing for the carrying out of a highly damaging policy so many of them don't stand behind. I thought they were patriots, yet they are busy ruining the country, and I think a lot of them know it. So why aren't they trying to stop it? Where are the Tories who want us to wake up from this nightmare? Who amongst them wants to Do The Right Thing? What happened to the national common sense? (Maybe all the Polish plumbers and German engineers are taking it home with them).

    I'm surprised at the vehemence of some leavers. People I've known for years are suddenly voicing opinions which are pretty nasty and hostile. One woman, who I had down as a nice grandmother, told me recently that now we have Brexit, we should bring back hanging and she’d like to be an executioner. Where the hell did that come from? (She's off my Christmas card list btw). I'm either an appalling judge of character or some people have been concealing really horrible attitudes and opinions for years. Brexit has given them permission to at last be honest.

    I'm surprised at how passionate I feel and I'm astonished to find myself going to the Austrian Embassy to collect my citizenship and applying for my new Austrian passport. I'm surprised to have been trolled for doing so. At least I'm not Von Trapped in a Britain I no longer fully recognise.

    So in general, I'm surprised by my country of birth, though not in a good way. I knew the vote was really bad news, but it is expressing itself in ways I hadn't anticipated.


    Will the UK restore Capital punishment after Brexit?

    Yes, and I've had conversations with Brextremists who see the reinstatement of hanging as the next step. I know, it's not a representative sample and it may be just a few nutters, but remember when we viewed UKIP and Trump that way?

    Britain has moved suddenly and dramatically to the right. The “String ’em up” brigade is in the vanguard of this. All it will take is a few more terrorist outrages and the Daily Mail will be shrieking about hanging being too good for them.

    (And this is a nice example of where I differ with BTIW2 when it comes to 'democracy'. BTIW2's 'democracy' would give us Capital Punishment, Unequal rights for Gay folk and 'others not like themselves', and even dafter things like Brexit. Honestly, the plebs are too ignorant to make some decisions.)
     
  2. If Brexit voters allegedly only did so out of racism, then how could retaining freedom of movement be what they voted for?

    I've spoken to plenty of Brexiteers and had pretty heated discussions with many of them. Some are clearly closet racists, but not one would openly admit it. It's mostly along the lines of “Look, I'm no racist. Some of my best holidays have been in Spain. But all these Polish plumbers/Romanian beggars/Pakistanis…”.

    I've not had a single one say to me that they don't like freedom of movement per se. They all seem to want complete freedom for Brits to move around uninterrupted, but for Britain to strictly control who can come here.

    Some are clearly not racist at all. A small group just think the UK will be financially better off outside the EU. This has emerged recently. Just after the vote I couldn't find anyone who thought there would be an economic price to pay at all, but now it seems that a period of pain has been accepted by all but the true extremists.

    It must be said that there is a wide variety of reasons people voted to leave the EU, and the desire to restrict travel to the UK for whatever reason formed only one, albeit big, group.
     
  3. How can British Tories claim to be patriots when statistics show they're condemning more and more of their own citizens to foodbanks and homelessness?

    As Mat Bull has clearly shown (unless the comment was sarcastic), people demonise the poor by claiming that they aren't really needy or that their poverty is a lifestyle choice. That may occasionally be the case, but not being a total ****, I prefer to take people at face value until there's avidence that they are frauds. This isn't the Victorian Age any more.

    The Tories care first and foremost about the Tories, then about their voters, then about people who they might get to vote for them. They don't give a **** about the poor, and never have, because they don't see them when they go to their nice holiday homes in the country. They aren't ever going to convince someone who has to visit a food bank to vote Conservative.

    So when more people find themselves in the unfortunate position of needing such help, the Tories ignore them because they have written them off.

    You quaintly link this to patriotism. Everyone is a patriot of their own romantic and possibly quite innacurate version of their country. For some Americans, it's a country without any black or Jewish people in it, as we saw in Charlottesville recently. For some Brits, it's a version of the U.K. that reflects their middle class values: golf courses, country sports, nice dinner parties with People Like Us. Poor people don't fit in to that image, so it's not in conflict with their idea of patriotism. They can be patriotic and still pour scorn on their fellow countrymen and women, and assuage any ***** of conscience they may by accident feel by demonising them.
     
  4. Should referendums and elections be declared null and void and be rerun if false and misleading information is given, just like getting a job under false pretenses?

    All politicians lie, especially during referenda or general elections. What made the recent EU referendum in the U.K different was that the lies were so blatant, so bare-faced and were admitted as such almost immediately afterwards.

    The referendum was like the PPI misselling scandal, only no one is offering compensation because a lot of the public seem to think that it's all going to be wonderful.
     
  5. What do you think of Angela Merkel?

    She represents sanity in a pretty mad world. She is consistently sensible and thinks in the long term. She does what is right even if it costs her in the short term.

    I don't even like many politicians, but I deeply admire Frau Merkel.
     
  6. How do people who think that Brexit will be bad compare just how bad it will be? What might be some precedents or analogies?

    I'd compare it to Argentina .

    In 1913 Argentina was the 10th richest country in the world and even in the 1960’s was growing faster than Japan, yet in April 2016, inflation was 41.7%. The right is in charge. Foreigners are blamed for the ills of the country.

    Before the referendum, Britain was the fastest growing member of the G7. Now we are the slowest. Sterling has plummeted. The value of wages is falling. Companies are relocating to Europe. The right is in charge. Foreigners are blamed for the ills of the country.

    I'm not saying Britain will decline as dramatically as Argentina has, but it's the start of something that has no obvious end.
     
  7. Boris Johnson says EU negotiators can "go whistle" if they expect Britain to pay a divorce bill to leave the EU. How will this impact negotiations?

    I'm glad he said this.

    I’m glad the negotiating position is to insult our opposite numbers with cheap jibes and playground cat-calls, because I want the EU to get angry and to make it impossible for David Davis & co to get a decent deal. I want Davis to continue making outrageous predictions and for May to support the fantasy that a wonderful new future awaits us. Because that will increase the chances of the EU taking a hard line.

    The Brextremists I know cannot be persuaded by arguments because they dispute every fact presented. Reality is one they cannot deny. They might just dig in and dare Brussels to do their worst, but that's ok because I'm not convinced there is a majority of Brits who want to destroy our economy and our standing in the world just to win this argument.

    The Leavers who are not extreme and who are I believe the majority, are more likely to waver if the pursuit of Brexit is a frightening cost.

    The Remainers who just want to get it over with can be persuaded to achieve this by reversing Brexit rather than by meekly going ahead with it.

    Only if the cost is truly awful might there be a chance that the country will hesitate over Brexit. It’s a slim chance, because both major parties support self-destruction, albeit from very different ideological standpoints.

    So pile it on Boris. The bigger the buffoon you are, the greater the chance that this self-imposed nightmare might end.
     
    Deleted member 164349 likes this.
  8. Why do poor people vote for the Conservative Party in the UK?

    I worked on the Conservative advertising for two general elections. This was a subject we gave a lot of thought to, and it's actually simple: a lot of poor people don't think they will always be poor. They have aspirations just like everyone. That's a good thing, but it's often taken to unrealistic levels. They think that “Ok, I'm not earning a lot now, but one day I'll have a bloody great yacht”, so they vote for the party they think will help them most achieve that great leap to riches and the one they identify with in their imaginary alternative life.

    It's the principle behind shows like “Bake Off”, “X-Factor” and “The Voice” and a host of other contests where “ordinary” people suddenly strike it rich. It's deeply rooted in human psyche, and the Tories know it.

    The Conservatives are quite aware that they are pedlars of what is for most, false hope. They point out the Alan Sugars and Richard Bransons and say that you too can achieve this under their governance. Tories are really interested in maintaining the status quo and helping them and their core donors.

    I've asked friends who aren't well off but voted Tory why they did so. One is a teacher who is about to lose his job. The answers come straight out of the Daily Mail.

    We have a poisonous right-wing press in this country, dominated by five billionaires who create a climate that persuades people to act against what is in their best interests. That monopoly has to change.
     
    Aadm B- likes this.
  9. fillyboy

    fillyboy Screwfix Select

    Somebody ought to tell him about the Austrians deploying troops and tanks to their border with Italy to stem the flow of migrants.
     
  10. Wht don't you ask about that on Quora?

    Anyhoo, thanks for reading it :)
     
  11. fillyboy

    fillyboy Screwfix Select

    Perhaps someone ought to suggest that his mate, who's currently enjoying a rather long summer holiday, ought to log on to a council website, any council website, and look at the jobs section. I think he may be pleasantly surprised, plenty of jobs for teachers.
     
  12. Not sure what 'Nick' would say but, if I may be so presumptuous, I suspect it would possibly point out the irony of a rabid Brexiteer - who lives on an island country, and who is therefore in one of the parts of the EU less likely to be affected by illegal immigration - latching on to this as the first analysis of Mr Schon's many posts. Proving the point - as if it were needed - that an irrational fear of immigrants was the prime driving force of the Leave campaign and of those who voted 'out'.

    He might even make a passing reference to distorted immigration stats... :rolleyes:

    Then he'd probably say that, yes, illegal immigration is a serious issue that does need addressing, and that - as a partner in the Union - we should (a) be insisting that controlling these borders should be done with care and humanity, and (b) as a country that isn't anywhere near the front line, we should be contributing greater resources towards this end.

    Possibly a few more jibes would then be launched by the Brexiteer's obvious paranoia, with the odd reference to Schengen et al.

    Then possibly he suggest that part of the EU's long-term role would be to help develop these poor countries so that their populations don't feel the need to leave home.

    But, please ask him, 'cos I'd love to see his answer.
     
  13. I genuinely applaud the detail with which you are looking in to these posts.
     

  14. And I think that sums up a large amount in here. Thinking that good old hard work will make them rich and only the Tories can help them achieve it!

    Imaginary alternative life.

    Dreams and dreamers
     
  15. longboat

    longboat Screwfix Select

    The same must also be true of the benevolent Merkel and her CDP, since as a percentage of population more people use food banks in Germany than the UK.
     
  16. btiw2

    btiw2 Screwfix Select

    Why's it my 'democracy' (and what's with the scare quotes?).
    I'd like to take the credit for democracy but, in fairness, I think the Athenians got there first.

    Anyway...

    You've gone from this:
    to this:
    in about eighteen months.

    The referendum in our "true democracy" has changed your fellow citizens from "icons of decency" to bloody thirsty and vengeful gay bashers?

    You're finding it difficult to come to terms with this result aren't you DA?
    You might want to consider grief counselling, reading the stoics or abusing hard liquor. Cheer up, you still have the Archers!

    I'm a pleb (I'm certainly not an elite) and ... well... who cares what I think? amiright? I'm too ignorant for complicated things like opinions eh?
    Remind me - what should I do when my betters address me? Do I tug my forelock, bend my knee, wai or prostrate myself?

     
    longboat likes this.
  17. btiw2

    btiw2 Screwfix Select

    Pleb
    noun

    1. One of the common people.
    ORIGIN: abbreviation of plebeian - member of the lower class in ancient Rome.​

    You do know you're on the Screwfix forum right?
    Most of us are plebs by that definition and I don't think we're all ignorant.

    Would you go on to an ethnic community forum and say similar things about all people from the Indian subcontinent?

    Hey! Maybe there's a middle class equivalent of stormfront you could visit. A site where bigoted teachers, doctors and solicitors[1] can express their opinion of the working class?
    "Those plebs coming over here, with their bacon sandwiches, smelling of chips - and don't get me started on the chavs!"

    [1] Yup! I've just stereotyped teachers, doctors and solicitors. Irony FTW! It seems that Brexit brings out the bigot in all of us.
     
  18. As a lad, btiw2, I was aware of when capital punishment was abolished in this country - I guess I was around 7.

    I was lucky in having a wiser older brother (who became an MP - a very honourable one at that - later in life) who would chew the cud with me over these issues, most of which I was not remotely interested in.

    BUT, I felt in my gut that to have a life taken was 'wrong', regardless of how much the person 'deserved' it, and whether the 'state' sanctioned it. I was also made aware - via my bro - that the decision to rescind CP was made against the desire of the British majority (and that probably even included my parents).

    So, no, not eighteen months, btiw2 - more like fifty-odd years. All that time I have 'known' that there are some things that simply should not be entrusted to the average person I see walking around in the street.

    You know what? The fact that the bulk of the British population are largely ignorant hasn't raised it's ugly head for much of that time, even when they voted in Thatcher time and time again.

    But Brexit - and all the foul behaviour that accompanies it - has brought it home in a way I wouldn't have believed possible.

    (Oh, as for my light-hearted use of the term 'Pleb' - I very much include myself in that definition. Part of the Plebiscite :p.)


    You mentioned in another thread that you disagree with me on this issue. That's why I mention it here, and that's why I compare my definition of 'democracy' with yours. Don't be so modest - I am not referring to the ancient Greeks, just your good self.
     
  19. Yawn - covered my my mate Nick above. Merkel has a vision, an honourable one for the EU and the world, and doesn't react in a knee-jerk way to populist demands.

    Germany could pish all over the other European countries if it wished (and as you would wish Britain would do had we the same capability). It never ceases to amaze me why you don't recognise the bigger picture here.

    But I know it's because that Faragists don't have a bigger picture - they just want for themselves - and will mislead the plebiscite to gain it.

    What Britain risks having is an elite that'll pish on those who put them there.
     

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