longboat
Screwfix Select
You've worn me down, I give up.
J
joinerjohn1
Guest
Try telling that to the citizens of Paris, Brussels, Barcelona, London etc,,, Peace and stability my @rse
D
Deleted member 33931
Guest
Resign away. (Have I mixed my verbs and nouns again?
)Btiw2, I truly admire your posts and the efforts that you put in. I simply could not do that if I tried. And I certainly wouldn't do so for this forum even if I could. Well, I might start that way, but I'd soon give up.
Sorry if I pi**ed on Filly and JoT's valid conversation. Where is it again? How many dozens of threads and thousands of posts would I need to trawl through to find it?
I can't remember when you or your near-doppelgänger joined this forum - was it significantly pre-Ref? If so, you would almost certainly have witnessed the genuine attempts to put the arguments for Remain. And the counterpoints which very soon degenerated into images of 'that' poster by Farage and cartoons of Merkel with a H***** moustache and/or Swastika armband.
Please carry on, Please do. But perhaps you also recall a more recent thread where you gave one of your fabulously-detailed responses to Harry (was it? I can't recall) and I added my tu-pence worth immediately afterwards by wondering what the protagonist would make of it. Well, turns out Harry made of it exactly as I imagined - nothing. He didn't reply.
It was pointless.
You play it your admirable way, btiw2, and I'll play it mine. Mine will involve the odd pertinent point and a fair bit of name-calling. I say it as I see it.
Surely, in my own pitiful way, that's also valid
D
Deleted member 33931
Guest
That happened because of the EU?
These attacks will stop once (if) we're out?
What is it you are trying to say?
You work in the 'care' sector, JJ, don't you? You have made enough posts on here to convince me you are a genuinely caring individual in the job you do, as, of course, are the vast majority of your co-workers.
And I'm equally certain you were as appalled as any at the instances of terrible abuse that took place in some 'care' homes fairly recently?
How many of these perps were, say, Filipinos? Or, Somalis?
I now have no idea what is going on in this thread there are so many jumps the main one I think is about brexit but then there are ones regarding race and who is supreme, extremist attacks (I think this is what john was hinting at), how well liked merkel, How Germany now rule Europe, How much lies were told during the campaign (in fairness this has a lot of clout cause anything Farage said he would do is pointless now and was then as he had no power to do any of it and probably never will) then there are many others I'm missing.
No wonder you all cant agree you don't even know what the argument or debate is about anymore.
Now in terms of the EU it is not as bad as made out yes it has its problem so does everything. and DA is right it provides stability and protection not just from wars (to be honest that's more NATO's field) but for the economy as well. The value of the pound has been volatile to say the least after the result. This is because we are in uncharted territory. Once again in my opinion the only place in Britain that ends up better off after we leave is London.
How many of you think Britain will be able to keep what it has left of its manufacturing?
No wonder you all cant agree you don't even know what the argument or debate is about anymore.
Now in terms of the EU it is not as bad as made out yes it has its problem so does everything. and DA is right it provides stability and protection not just from wars (to be honest that's more NATO's field) but for the economy as well. The value of the pound has been volatile to say the least after the result. This is because we are in uncharted territory. Once again in my opinion the only place in Britain that ends up better off after we leave is London.
How many of you think Britain will be able to keep what it has left of its manufacturing?
btiw2
Screwfix Select
It's usually best to ignore the "I'm not a racist, but..." posts. They're not bigoted, swivel-eyed loons, but...
Not that I'm having a go at bigoted, swivel-eyed loons - some of my best friends are bigoted, swivel-eyed loons.
You get the idea.
It's mad isn't it? It's like we're suffering from hyperactive attention deficit but-what-about-the-immigrants disorder.
Now my obligatory nonsense is out the way, let's look at the question.
Why is our manufacturing base related to our membership of the EU?
The Germans and the Chinese both manage to do very well in manufacturing - one within the EU and one without. Admittedly I'd rather be a German worker, than a Chinese one - but that's not my point.
Firstly, we need to ask whether keeping what's left of our manufacturing is a good thing. i.e. Is it intrinsically good? If employees could add more value outside of manufacturing, would that be somehow worse?
Or we could accept that it is good - it just is.
How will our leaving the EU affect our manufacturing base? It seems to me that our retreat from manufacturing predates Brexit.
We could look at why we lost our manufacturing base within the EU and Germany has thrived.
Possibly the lifelong emphasis on engineering training in Germany has something to do with it.
Possibly there something in the British culture that promotes advertising, media and financial occupations as somehow more worthy than engineering and manufacturing.
When did this slide start? Did Mrs. Thatcher's destruction of the unions have anything to do with it?
I don't know. I'd be interested to know your thoughts.
J
joinerjohn1
Guest
Hey DA, just in case you had not noticed, the EU keeps on inviting them across EU borders. ISIS have stated that they are getting operatives in to the EU disguised as refugees. The EU have not addressed this problem. Herr Merkel invites them to Germany, then tells us it's an EU problem. The EU leadership should turn round and tell her "You invited them, specifically to Germany, so it's "YOUR problem" .
DA, I work for the NHS (slightly different from the "Care Home" private sector) Did you read about the hospital that dared to give patients medicines disguised in their food etc? Yep that too could be construed as a form of abuse. What do you want us to do though? Allow patients to keep on refusing life saving medicines, just because they don't see the need for them, or don't have the capacity to make an informed decision? I can see some family suing a hospital for failing to ensure their loved one took meds, yet apparently it's a patients right to refuse?? We have to make "best interest" decisions for many of our patients. Would you rather we didn't ? Can't do right for doing wrong these days.
Yep it's sad that elderly should be subject to any sort of abuse. It never ceases to amaze me that "Care homes" get a bad reputation because of a few , twisted individuals. What you don't hear about though is the fact that most elderly abuse is committed by family members, close friends, or people known to the victim. That abuse doesn't get the press it needs.
F
fillyboy
Guest
I believe the unions pretty much destroyed themselves with 'the winter of discontent' and also scuppering Jim Callaghans hopes of an election win by reneging on
pay increase agreements. By the time of the miners strike unions were already in decline along with manufacturing, we were hopelessly uncompetitive because of the amount of strike action. Thatcher put a few more nails in the coffin for sure, but I wouldn't credit her with the destruction of unions, in fact, when 25% of all employees are a union member (54% in the public sector) you can't really call that their destruction.
longboat
Screwfix Select
I'd be impressed if you could find any official statement of intent not to pay what we legally owe.
A bit of banter in the house of commons will not be accepted as such.
F
fillyboy
Guest
Yes, but The Labour Party would sit down with the union leaders once a year and agree pay increases, my recollection is that Jim Callaghan (who I think was very underrated as a PM) had agreed a pay deal with the unions, and the unions reneged on that deal putting in claims for more than double. What followed were the strikes we know as the winter of discontent, which brought down the Labour Govt and let Maggie in.
Is what we have today any different to the old prices and incomes policy?, yes, income today is decided by the 'market', but who controls 'the market'?
longboat
Screwfix Select
The weaker pound will certainly help promote our exports of manufactured goods, just as the Germans exploited the devaluation of their currency when they adopted the Euro. They also invest billions, every year in an efficient network of support, training and technical institutions specifically focused on promoting the 'made in Germany' brand.
The UK's manufacturing output has increased over recent years and we are now back into the top 10 of worldwide output, standing in 8th place, up from eleventh in 2010.
Btiw My thoughts is that our problems were not just strikes and issues with unions which thatcher certainly did not help and the whole let the markets decide where was that when the banks were going down.
I do think that is an issue as well our government is not willing to step in and help until it is to late a prime example recently is the steel mills.
Our major issue was our lack of ability to move with the times this mainly corresponds to the car market. I take pride in the list of fantastic British cars. I am also saddened by there decline and it is down to cheapness. Instead of bring out new engines and new ideas we would use old ones as it was cheaper even if the had problems rover/MG a prime example. I think that was the major down fall specifically for the car industry when you reliability goes your reputation goes with it. at the end rover was selling every car for a loss. Where Germany has instilled this belief I have to admit I have it my self that made in Germany means quality.
I do believe Britain could gain from our exports being cheaper but the issue is our imports are on the rise and with our cost price always rising our selling price will rise with it so will we really be that much cheaper?
That's a good question that i think only time will tell.
I do think that is an issue as well our government is not willing to step in and help until it is to late a prime example recently is the steel mills.
Our major issue was our lack of ability to move with the times this mainly corresponds to the car market. I take pride in the list of fantastic British cars. I am also saddened by there decline and it is down to cheapness. Instead of bring out new engines and new ideas we would use old ones as it was cheaper even if the had problems rover/MG a prime example. I think that was the major down fall specifically for the car industry when you reliability goes your reputation goes with it. at the end rover was selling every car for a loss. Where Germany has instilled this belief I have to admit I have it my self that made in Germany means quality.
I do believe Britain could gain from our exports being cheaper but the issue is our imports are on the rise and with our cost price always rising our selling price will rise with it so will we really be that much cheaper?
That's a good question that i think only time will tell.
D
Deleted member 33931
Guest
Of course not - how convenient.
Isn't it time that the bantering stopped - both in and out of the HoC?
Compare Davis with Starmer.
Davis talks, not to the MPs, but to his core Brexit supporters in the country - like Trump targets his lot at his press conferences and rallies. What's his latest glib posturing? That the EU is trying to extort money from the UK? That 'we never said it was going to be easy'?
I'm sure his core supporters 'Hurrayed' at all that. (Honest, now - you did, didn't you?)
Meanwhile, all the other negotiations - such as those over research & science cooperation - will seemingly be 'easy'; all the UK has to do is to negotiate an equivalent. Which will be better!
Peasy.
EU travelling to the UK? Let's go back to demanding passports. Of course the EU wouldn't ask the same of us - 'cos we are spesh.
D
Deleted member 164349
Guest
There has been lots of comments on here about how we shouldnt have to even pay a penny to exit hasnt there.
I think a few are beginning to backtrack now reality is hitting
I think a few are beginning to backtrack now reality is hitting
btiw2
Screwfix Select
It's tricky to formulate the question that matches our "feelings" about UK manufacturing, let alone find answers, isn't it?
We see empty factories, meet people made redundant from industries that have disappeared.
We see manufacturers that no longer exist (although we also ignore new ones that spring up).
I begged the question that UK manufacturing is in decline. It's a smaller part of our GDP, is that the same thing as decline? Is no/low growth the same thing as decline? [1] It's importance is declining relative to other industries - should we care?
Is it export currency we care about? Is it people employed in industry? Is it just export manufacturing, or domestic too?
I think people must be part of the goal, but I don't know how.
If you told me that manufacturing value had increased and all the manufacturing is done by robots. The ex-workers now work for minimum wage in call centres (until we work out how to send the jobs to India) then that doesn't feel like a good thing.
But if you told me that we can increase the number of people working in those industries or we could achieve the same thing using fewer people and more robots, then that seems like a waste of labour too.
So perhaps it's about people having useful skills - skills that add value.
But the service industries requires useful skills. Why's manufacturing special?
I think part of it is that advertising, film-making, music, banking seem a bit... poncy (I thought about using the words "ephemeral" or "intangible" here, but dismissed them as too poncy).
I don't know that this has to do with Brexit though. It's just observations about the special place manufacturing has in the nation's psyche.
[1] https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/manufacturingandproductionindustry
btiw2
Screwfix Select
I was looking for any throwaway comment to provoke discussion. The union thing was the first thing that popped into my head.
You're right. We import components and materials. Do stuff to components and materials. Sell the resulting thing.
It's about the value we can add in "doing stuff".
If we add value then the exchange rate will sort itself out.
We don't have much iron ore. Our energy isn't particularly cheap. Can we add much value to steel? Are there skills we have that can't be duplicated?
Bear in mind I know f'all about steel mills.
There's an argument about protecting industries for strategic reasons, but I'm just looking at what makes economic sense in terms of added value.
Perhaps we should be more interested in protecting communities around steel mills rather than the steel mill itself.
I don't know much about cars either, but in a global supply chain do we need to be the ones at the end of the chain? There must be British companies making components or providing services that end up in the final BMW or Mercedes.
I think you have a point about the German brand. German means quality engineering. Although doesn't Sheffield still have manufacturing brand value?
I wonder whether part of it is the German system of apprenticeships. Over there apprenticeships are seen as a real thing, over here it's sometimes associated with cheap labour.
Surely we want to get people "skilled up" as that's how we add value.
I also think the German class system is less linked to occupation.
In the UK a teacher, doctor or accountant is described as a "professional". Well, why isn't a butcher, baker or candlestick maker a professional? They're not amateurs.
Why are some jobs "trades" and others "professions"? Dunno, but I don't think the UK's snobbery does us any favours in attracting people to useful industries.
You get the feeling that a German who says he's a septic tank cleaner (I'm not hating on septic tank cleaners - I tried to think of a job that people might turn their noses up at) would take pride in being the best septic tank cleaner he could be.
In the UK the child of the septic tank cleaner might be teased in the playground for their father's profession (until their parents need their septic tank cleaning).
I find it difficult to see British manufacturing ever being what it was there is just no investment in the industry. As I said in one of my previous post London will do well as it is seen as the banking/finance capital of the UK and possibly Europe.
This is the culture Thatcher started we no longer produce as it is just so much cheaper and more effective to out source. Another issue to add here is work ethic not saying that the British have a bad work ethic but we like our time off and our holidays. I myself love the weekend and look forward to it as soon as Monday arrives. The point I'm making is that Indian and Chinese workers tend to have a better work ethic in general.
How much impact on output can a good work ethic have?
I am from a town in Scotland which used to be full of factories. The town is now left a shadow of its self and used mostly to house those who work in Glasgow and the main employers are call centers. It really is a shame as we have some history like Johnny Walkers, Massey Ferguson tractors and even BMK a carpet manufacturer who produced the carpets for the titanic.
All gone everyone of them.
Now in fairness johnny walkers just moved its plant to Leven but as it was our biggest employer at the time it caused quite a lot of unemployment.
To me it proves how important industry is to our economy small or not. What failed the factories was the bringing of cheaper imports and population buying said cheaper products rather than buying local. I studied it on my business course it was and easy formula to follow the factory employ a worker the worker produces the products for the factory, The factory pay said worker for his work then the worker buys what was produced at said factory.
You can see it in other cultures they buy there own item. Products made in there country. We didn't. or that's how i feel anyway.
Although the question was why does our manufacturing tie in with our position in the EU and the reason for that is due to we export the vast majority produced here to Europe if our deals fall so does our industry that is why it is important to not walk away from a deal even a bad one.
This is the culture Thatcher started we no longer produce as it is just so much cheaper and more effective to out source. Another issue to add here is work ethic not saying that the British have a bad work ethic but we like our time off and our holidays. I myself love the weekend and look forward to it as soon as Monday arrives. The point I'm making is that Indian and Chinese workers tend to have a better work ethic in general.
How much impact on output can a good work ethic have?
I am from a town in Scotland which used to be full of factories. The town is now left a shadow of its self and used mostly to house those who work in Glasgow and the main employers are call centers. It really is a shame as we have some history like Johnny Walkers, Massey Ferguson tractors and even BMK a carpet manufacturer who produced the carpets for the titanic.
All gone everyone of them.
Now in fairness johnny walkers just moved its plant to Leven but as it was our biggest employer at the time it caused quite a lot of unemployment.
To me it proves how important industry is to our economy small or not. What failed the factories was the bringing of cheaper imports and population buying said cheaper products rather than buying local. I studied it on my business course it was and easy formula to follow the factory employ a worker the worker produces the products for the factory, The factory pay said worker for his work then the worker buys what was produced at said factory.
You can see it in other cultures they buy there own item. Products made in there country. We didn't. or that's how i feel anyway.
Although the question was why does our manufacturing tie in with our position in the EU and the reason for that is due to we export the vast majority produced here to Europe if our deals fall so does our industry that is why it is important to not walk away from a deal even a bad one.
I
Isitreally
Guest
I wonder if Nick sees the future like this.
Sorry Btiw I was writing my other post when you posted this and i have to agree there are jobs that in reference to your septic tank cleaner job get put on a **** list and people don't want them. I do think it ties in a lot to do with our work ethic as I said before we are not the same as we were.
You could create an argument that our social state has given people a thought of get something for doing nothing attitude. but i think it'd be best to leave that stone un-turned.
I think the main thing to take from this is that our industry is still seen as the back bone of our economy. no matter how small it adds to the economy its self. If you were to take away all the factories and replace them with offices there would be an uproar but why you can get paid just as much if not more.
I think it is more important to the north than the south if we keep the industries as that is what keeps there towns and cities running.
you are right what tends to happen is we assemble cars now so the parts and made all around the world and we assemble them. Once again it does add to the marketing they can stamp it with assembled in the UK/ Britain. When people see that they do think quality why wouldn't they British engineering is still one of the world leaders maybe not quite German but it is still in that category.