novice electrics

Discussion in 'Electricians' Talk' started by heed, Oct 15, 2003.

  1. heed

    heed New Member

    I am currently renovating an end terrace house. I am basically starting from scratch and I am wondering what sort of cable i shall need for the basics, lighting, sockets and kitchen appliances? and also any other instruments i may need?
     
  2. ban-all-sheds

    ban-all-sheds New Member

    As a DIY-er myself, who has rewired an entire house, I hate to say this, but if you don't know things like this, should you really be attempting a task of this magnitude?
     
  3. utility-shop.com

    utility-shop.com New Member

    I don't disagree with ban-all-sheds but the poster is asking for advice and obviously is thinking ahead, which is good.

    While I haven't completely rewired an entire house, I have the capability to do so (as a DIY-er).

    As long as regulations AND common sense are followed, there should be no problem, and, as the chap is doing here: ask.

    I have a basic wiring and lighting book written by Mike Lawrence that states something like (it's not near me at present): 'The expertise you need to carry out most domestic electrical work is less than that required to paper a wall'.

    Now, I'm not saying that anybody can just go ahead and rewire a house, but there are numerous books, vast amounts of info. on the net and lots of people to ask and seek advice from.

    I do agree, though, that there are more important things to consider, especially with a huge DIY task such as this. Obviously, the first being to completely ensure that the house electrics are totally isolated before you start.

    Research first.

    Understand.

    Apply.

    If in doubt, check it out and ask somebody that knows. Don't attempt something you're not sure about - or at least get it professionally checked before making it live (sorry about the pun!).

    Make sure you know that heavy-draw appliances (electric cookers, immersion heaters, etc.) are wired using the correct cable DIRECTLY from the Consumer Unit and not from a ring spur nearby (I have seen this).

    hard to say what you'lll need exactly, but a little research yourself will help you to understand what's what - we all have to start somewhere.

    Good luck.

    Mark
     
  4. George Icbar

    George Icbar New Member

    I did this - took me 18 months (with distractions). Make sure you can live with chaos or have no other commitments until you finish the job!
     
  5. jj

    jj New Member

    rewired my 3bed semi in about 2 weeks (less the kitchen which was a completely separate project) Again, make reference to an up-to-date DIY book if not sure.

    Tip. Count how many double sockets you think you need the DOUBLE it !! My kitchen has 10 doubles and they all get used !! Also think about waist high sockets for the hoover, think ahead with regard to cat5 (computer cable) telephone cable, alarm cable, television, even maybe cctv, security lighting, all easy to put in at the time but think how hard to do once decorated or that hard-wood floor has been fitted ??

    Any floor boards I lifted I screwed back down to make it easy to lift next time round (when I fitted the central heating)

    I am sure there are HUNDREDS of tips so if I think of anymore I'll re-post

    A basic reference I used was by Which? But that was 6 or 7 years ago. I'm sure someone can quote a good one for use today.
     
  6. Brightspark

    Brightspark New Member

    'The expertise you need to carry out most domestic electrical work is less than that required to paper a wall' LOL!!!!!!
     
  7. Brightspark

    Brightspark New Member

    Thing is when you F*UP the wall papering it doesnt kill you or the house dont burn down LOL.
     
  8. daddy_sparky

    daddy_sparky New Member

    Less expertise than is required to paper a wall eh?

    Well do you understand Ze, Zs, Ib, In? Zones in bathrooms? R1+R2? Insulation resistance? RCD testing? Split load boards? Prospective fault current? Main and supplementary equipotential bonding? Cable grouping factors? The difference between TT, TNS & TNCS earthing? You could very well have a TT system on an old terrace. What are you going to do about choosing the correct RCD's in this case? Do you fire-stop cables going through walls?

    Some of the posts on this site indicate that people are attempting things way beyond their capability just to prove their "manhood". Why dont you leave it to a professional tradesman who will have spent a lot of time and money attaining his qualifications and is trying to earn a living.
     
  9. ban-all-sheds

    ban-all-sheds New Member

    Ze - this is the earth loop impedance external to the installation
    Zs - this is the complete earth fault loop impedance

    These are important because if you get a low-impedance fault between live and earth, you want the protective device (i.e. fuse or MCB) to trip quickly - e.g for socket circuits in 0.4 seconds. So you actually want a lot of current to flow in the event of a fault - the lower the fault current the more dangerous it is, as it will take longer for the protective device to trip. This is intuitively obvious with a fuse - most people would expect 500A through a 30A fuse to blow it PDQ, and 31A to never blow it at all, so clearly there is a relationship which says the greater the current the faster the protective device will operate.

    So the requirement is that Zs must be low enough so that when a fault ocurrs, the current that flows will be enough to trip the device in the required amount of time. From Ohms law, if Ia is that fault current and V is the voltage, Zs must be < V/Ia.

    Ze is outside your control - the rest of (Zs-Ze) is the resistance of the live, or phase conductor plus the protective conductor (earth wire) (This, BTW, is known as R1+R2). Actually, strictly speaking, impedance is not just resistance, but with the sizes of cables used in domestic installations it's probably close enough, if you err on the side of caution (us DIY bodgers, eh?). R1+R2, and voltage drop, are why there are limits on how long circuits should be.

    Ib is your design current, i.e. how much you expect the circuit to have to handle. Preferably less than its safe maximum.

    In is the current setting of your protective device.

    And repeating from above, Ia is the actual current that will cause your protective device to operate.

    So Ib should be < In (but not too much less). In will always be less than Ia, and Ia should be less than the rating of your cable.


    Zones in bathrooms - I won't go into all the details, but basically Zone 0 is the interior of a bath or shower tray, or in the case of a wet room a cylindrical space 50mm high and with a radius of 0.6m from a fized shower head or 1.2m of a demountable one. In other words the spaces in a bathroom that could either be under water or subject to a substantial deluge. Zone 1 is the space above zone 0 up to 2.25m from the floor, and, if you can get to it without tools, the space under the bath or shower tray. How that applies to my bathroom where I can spring the side panel off the bath with my fingers, but my wife can't, I don't know. And so it goes on, outwards and possibly upwards if you have high ceilings, to Zones 2 and 3. It's all to do with what could get immersed, or deluged, or badly splashed, or slightly splashed, and where you could reach to whilst standing in the bath or shower and so on. And there are regulations about what you can have where (e.g pullcord switches, no sockets except proper shaver ones), where you must use SELV appliances (e.g. extractor fans), what IP ratings equipment must have, where you can put the power source for your SELV equipment, and how you have to have extra equipotential bonding, and when you can run cables through one zone to get to another and so on and so forth. It comes down to "water and electricity don't mix" - a wet naked person is a better conductor than a dry clothed one - things here could end up under water whereas things there will just get steamed up etc, and if I ever need to know the details I will go and look them up.

    Insulation resistance? Yes there should be some. Lots, actually - at least 250kOhm for transformer fed ELV circuits and 500kOhm for up to 500v circuits, and it should be tested at 250V and 500V respectively (DC, so as not to get confused by the dielectric characteristics of the insulation).

    And I can't be bothered to go on - yes I do know about these things, I do understand the different earthing schemes, I do know which sections of a split-load CU should be used for which circuits, I do know how to do derating calculations to allow for cable bunching, enclosed cables, high ambient temperatures, I do know what Prospective Fault Current is, and how it's tricky to estimate, and how the supply company won't give you an accurate figure, and how you could calculate it from measurements taken after installation but by then it's too late and anyway it might change later if the supply company beef up their capacity....

    And if instead of trying to bamboozle people you had explained a few basics, and told them what really matters and why, and where to find out more info to do the sums that matter, then I might not have decided that your last sentence shows exactly what it is that really concerns you. Well, don't worry, your services become virtually compulsory next year, so you'll do alright. Just don't expect to be welcome though.
     
  10. Brightspark

    Brightspark New Member

    ban-all-sheds .....Just because you understand electrical theory don't assume that most D.I.Y.'s do!! If someone is planning to wire an house without any prior knowledge of electrical installation then you would be well advised to stay clear of it. Don't get me wrong if your really interested in it and feel you can learn from the experience then get someone who knows to help you, that why you can ask questions and pick it up as you go along. Another point not mentioned and is a very important one is that every installation should be inspected and tested to verify that the requirements have been met. The inspector carrying out the work MUST have a sound knowledge and experience relevant to the nature of the installation and to the technical standards. The inspector must be fully versed in the inspection and testing procedures and employ suitable testing equipment during the inspection and test (i.e. not a hand lamp).
    And to your last point I for one am not interested about D.I.Y.'s doing electrical work. I am quite happy to go along and help someone out who's not quite sure and would never ignore them. You can read as many books as you like but it wont make up for hands on experience.
    And people lets not forget that ELECTRICITY CAN KILL!!!!
    So please seek expert advice when your not sure.
     
  11. Brightspark

    Brightspark New Member

    And here's an extract from one of your ealrier posts LOL........'For the most part it is a Good Idea - it's basically designed to stop the kitchen fitter or boiler installer or off-duty fireman who has "watched someone else" and now thinks he's an electrician. IMHO, if someone is taking money to do a job then they should be qualified and certified and insured etc - they should be better and more knowledgeable than a DIY-er, otherwise what's the point?'
    Dont you think you sound a little hypocritical.
     
  12. LIGHTNING ROD

    LIGHTNING ROD New Member

    Keep going with your text book explanations and you will eventually bore him in to getting a qualified person in to doing his job,just like he should do in the first place.
    And , Oh yes, The Asker should be informing local authority that he is rewiring his house as this is now a requirement unless you are part of an affiliated body(ECA,NICEIC, QUALITY MARK etc)
    Unfortunately in todays world people forget the dangers of electricity and think it will never get them or there actions will not cause fires that will eventually cause injury or death.
    If you think thats a joke go to your local fire station and ask for the statistics on DIY related injuries and deaths
     
  13. ban-all-sheds

    ban-all-sheds New Member

    Ah - I've been fretting all day about the post I did last night - Daddy Sparky got my goat, I'm afraid, and I didn't do the safe thing which was to compose my reply, and then leave it until the morning to re-read before I posted it. Maybe I'll do that with this one, if I feel I'm getting het-up, in which case apologies if any of this becomes redundant because of intervening posts.

    First, then, Brightspark:

    Just because you understand electrical theory don't assume that most D.I.Y.'s do!! If someone is planning to wire an house without any prior knowledge of electrical installation then you would be well advised to stay clear of it.

    I agree, which is what I meant in my very first reply to heed. Whilst rewiring a house is not trivial, neither is it rocket science, despite what Daddy Sparky might try to tell you. It is possible to learn enough to do it safely without long apprenticeships, or C&G/HNC/HND/whatever courses. There are a number of good books around (in fact the Part P consultation document identifies a number as sources of useful info on good practice), and there's also this: http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/1.1.htm which you can buy or read on-line, which goes into the theory in a clear and understandable way.

    I interpret the quote from Mike Lawrence's book 'The expertise you need to carry out most domestic electrical work is less than that required to paper a wall' (if that's accurate) as referring to the level of manual skill you need. Maybe I'm being too generous to him, but it's true that ignoring the "why", the "how" of putting in cables, preparing the ends, wiring them into the correct terminals on sockets etc is easier than doing a neat and tidy wallpapering job, particularly if it's that sort of paper where you daren't get any paste on the face. Are electrical calculations easier than working out how many rolls you need? No they are not. But they're hardly advanced maths.

    And I wonder, OOI, how much of an apprentice's electrician time is spent as cheap labour, pulling cables and knocking holes into walls rather than learning theory?

    Don't get me wrong if your really interested in it and feel you can learn from the experience then get someone who knows to help you, that why you can ask questions and pick it up as you go along. Another point not mentioned and is a very important one is that every installation should be inspected and tested to verify that the requirements have been met. The inspector carrying out the work MUST have a sound knowledge and experience relevant to the nature of the installation and to the technical standards. The inspector must be fully versed in the inspection and testing procedures and employ suitable testing equipment during the inspection and test (i.e. not a hand lamp).

    I don't see why any DIY-er shouldn't be happy to have his work inspected - if he's worried, then he shouldn't have done it, and if it's not safe then he should be told. Cost would be an issue though.

    And to your last point I for one am not interested about D.I.Y.'s doing electrical work. I am quite happy to go along and help someone out who's not quite sure and would never ignore them. You can read as many books as you like but it wont make up for hands on experience.
    And people lets not forget that ELECTRICITY CAN KILL!!!!
    So please seek expert advice when your not sure.


    Can and does kill, if you're stupid. But then so does driving a car, or even crossing the road.


    And here's an extract from one of your ealrier posts LOL........'For the most part it is a Good Idea - it's basically designed to stop the kitchen fitter or boiler installer or off-duty fireman who has "watched someone else" and now thinks he's an electrician. IMHO, if someone is taking money to do a job then they should be qualified and certified and insured etc - they should be better and more knowledgeable than a DIY-er, otherwise what's the point?'
    Dont you think you sound a little hypocritical.


    Err - no, I don't, and I stand by what I said. Anybody who takes money to do anything should have qualifications, should be certified, should carry insurance in case they do damage or cause injury. At the moment there is no such requirement, that's my understanding. And when I say "better", I mean better at everything - sockets and switches exactly square, and at the same height, and fixed into holes that are exactly the right size. Visible cables runing to and from consumer units to be fixed exactly parallel to each other, and wherever possible to run vertically and horizontally - no casual loops and bunches. Floorboards lifted and replaced without the tongues being ripped off, and no creaks afterwards. Printed labels for CUs, not handwritten. The proper tools to sink holes and chase channels with the minimum of mess. Scrupulously cleaning up mess afterwards. Knowing the regulations and calculations without having to look them up. Working faster. Being able to give good advice, unprompted, to cover off things the customer hasn't thought of. And so on - consummate professionalism, basically. Maybe I should have said "better and more knowledgeable then the average DIY-er?

    Where I have a problem with the new Bulding Regs is first of all, they are illogical - if it's OK for me to replace one circuit, why not two? If I'm safe to completely replace a circuit, why am I not safe to add a new one? If I can be trusted to add one socket onto a ring, why not two? And so on. And secondly, I think they missed a great opportuniy to make DIY wirers safer. The world is full of f***g idiots, and these regulations are not going to stop them, unless the plan is that you won't be allowed to buy cable and fittings any more. But the world is also full of people who, with a bit of training, could learn enough to be perfectly safe to work on domestic wiring installations. If someone is prepared to, say, attend evening classes once a week for 6 months, during which time they could be assessed, and then have to pass a test at the end, they aren't then going to go home and carry on using 1.5mm for their ring mains, or have unfused spurs with half a dozen sockets, or run non-RCD supplies out to their garage. Think about all the stuff that people wouldn't need to know for single-phase supplies at 230V, and the types of circuits you get in dwellings, compared to what an electrician needs to know to go up to 1000V, three-phase, commercial and industrial circuits, motor control and all that. I am convinced that you could make people safe to do their own wiring, and then all you'd need would be a reasonable cost testing regime,and Robert would be your father's brother.

    At least people would have a choice between making themselves safe and keeping Daddy Sparky gainfully employed (as is his right ;-)), instead of having to swallow the line that they don't know what they are doing.


    LIGHTNING ROD:

    Keep going with your text book explanations and you will eventually bore him in to getting a qualified person in to doing his job,just like he should do in the first place.

    Well - I didn't intend to bore him. But if the original author of this thread is a complete novice, and if he doesn't even have a clue about how to size cables, and if he really does find a bit of theory boring then he has neither the knowledge he needs, nor the interest to acquire it, and yes, he should get a qualified sparks in.
    [HEED - note the 'if's - for all I know you are capable and interested, and you're busy swotting up, but if the 'if's do apply, then get someone in - it isn't as straightforward as papering a wall, and its a damn sight harder to put right if you cock it up.

    (Oh,and BTW - it wasn't me that introduced the text-book stuff here...)

    And , Oh yes, The Asker should be informing local authority that he is rewiring his house as this is now a requirement unless you are part of an affiliated body(ECA,NICEIC, QUALITY MARK etc)

    Um - genuine question - is that the case yet? I didn't think that requirement kicked in until April next year?

    Unfortunately in todays world people forget the dangers of electricity and think it will never get them or there actions will not cause fires that will eventually cause injury or death.
    If you think thats a joke go to your local fire station and ask for the statistics on DIY related injuries and deaths


    Yup - as I said, the world is full of f***g idiots. And how many of the incidents that the fire station can tell me about are caused by f***g idiots doing something f***g idiotic, and how many are caused by people who've taken the trouble to learn a bit about safety and good practice, and have taken care to get it right, even if they don't know about Ze, Zs, Ib and In?


    Anyway - we should all try not to bicker, so I'll finish with a few bits of advice on laser safety.

    1) Never look into a laser with your one remaining good eye.

    2) How many times can you look into a laser? Twice - once with the left eye, and once with the right.

    3) Never put any part of your body into the path of a laser beam. If you do, the pain and the smell of burning flesh will let you know that this has happened.
     
  14. daddy_sparky

    daddy_sparky New Member

    Well ban-all-sheds,
    I dont think you have fretted enough if you still use "f****" in your posts.

    "...people could learn enough in six months..........." ? I dont think so. I teach electrical installation and some of the people that come on the courses are frightening. How can you expect someone to follow and understand BS7671 when they cant speak english? When they arrive with a regs book that is ten years out of date? When they cant do basic addition? You list a number of things that we should be better at to make us professional yet you expect a six month course to impart knowledge that we have gained over many many years. It seems to me that you would never respect any electrician.

    The new building regs will not allow you replace even one circuit, as this will be a new installation. As such you will need to be a "competent person" and a member of a body, as Lightning Rod points out.

    Can we conclude that you work with lasers? If so can I come and do your job at weekends? For free? You could take a few days off in the week to play with the kids or go shopping. Although how you would afford food I dont know because if I'm doing your job you cant have any wages. I've dabbled a bit with lasers in the past. You know, tasks like changing strainers on cooling water and that sort of thing, but I'm sure I would be safe after a few weeks playing about.

    Good point about fires lightning rod. How much evidence of DIY botch jobs have you seen? Perhaps we should get together and compare notes over a coffee sometime.
     
  15. WOLF

    WOLF New Member

    to be completely honest with you guys out there , there are a few things that you lot seem to forget!!!
    ask your respective insurance companies for the small print on your house hold insurance, along with the mortgage company as well.... why, because nearly all have policies that state all electrical AND gas installations MUST WITH OUT FAIL: have a certificate of approval, i.e. corgi no:/i.e.e.no: etc when any installations and alterations/additions are completed.... in other words, if you are not registered AND INSURED as a gas or electrical fitter and carry out un-checked or un-certificated work upon the premises, then your insurance is nul and void, and so can the mortgage be, which means you have to pay to have it put right by a proffessional....etc; that is the big over looked piece...sorry to bore you guys with that, but a gentleman who's home we are quoting to repair, on behalf of the mortgage company,done his own wiring...mostly installed correctly, but because of a minor wiring fault,chaffed cable on a pull through(no grommets) and especially because there was no end certificate, when it caught light, the mortgage insurance told him to go and get stuffed.... and the poor sap is left having to pay who evers bill is accepted .........
     
  16. WOLF

    WOLF New Member

    p.s. and as an ex fireman, i got sick of d.i.y. electricians and gas fitters.....funny how most of them end up smelling of "PORK", and have a perminant dark black sun tan!!!!!!
     
  17. Brightspark

    Brightspark New Member

    Nice bit of banter going on here lads, I like it, LOL.
    A little story..........I used to be an elec engineer in industry working with instrumentation & control (PLC's and the like).
    When people would class me as an electrician like a house basher and the sort I used to get quite annoyed thinking I was well advanced of that sort of work and that it was childs play. How wrong I was. Now that I spent the last few years at night school studying the reqs and inspection & testing, I was quite taken back at how much there really is to know and how blind I was to the electrical installation business.
    I have listened to some of the storys that the lectures have had in their vast experiance of the industry and that how dangerous it can be if you dont know what your doing. I am awed at would I didnt know and now do.
    I run my own company now and I'm still learning as each day goes, it's a good trade to have and can be very rewarding with the right attidude, but lets not lose sight as to the dangers of the job.
    I do agree with you on some of your points ban-all-sheds (not the six month course mind) and it's good for people to learn and buy books and that but please like I said earlier electricity is not to be played with by the novice alone and unsupervised (I for one would never play about with gas no matter what books I have read).
    Thats the good thing about these boards that people can get some sound advice on certain jobs.
    And heres a saying 'a LITTLE knowledge can be a dangerous thing'
     
  18. ban-all-sheds

    ban-all-sheds New Member

    Quoted from Daddy Sparky 28/9/03 09:34

    "...people could learn enough in six months..........." ? I dont think so. I teach electrical installation and some of the people that come on the courses are frightening. How can you expect someone to follow and understand BS7671 when they cant speak english? When they arrive with a regs book that is ten years out of date? When they cant do basic addition? You list a number of things that we should be better at to make us professional yet you expect a six month course to impart knowledge that we have gained over many many years. It seems to me that you would never respect any electrician.

    That's actually completely untrue - I never said that 6 months was enough to become a proper electrician. I'm not conceited or arrogant enough to believe that, and I'm not trying to insult you or belittle your skills. When I said 6 months (semi-plucked out of the air, I must admit), what I had in mind was a competent person (in the normal English, not regulatory, sense), who was motivated to learn, capable of reading, writing and speaking English, capable of doing basic maths, already knowing one end of a screwdriver from the other, prepared to buy a copy of the latest regs and/or OSG, do a bit of studying at home outside of the training course etc. I believed that someone like that could be taught enough to safely do wiring jobs at home in that sort of timescale. I wouldn't claim that it would turn anyone into a fully-qualified electrician.

    Maybe I'm wrong - you and Brightspark both think so, and I have to take note of that - guess I should do some more research. But I do note that there are quite a few colleges that reckon you can learn enough about BS7671 to pass G&G 2381 in 10-14 weeks of evening classes. Yes - before you all jump up and down, just knowing the regs is only a part of it, but it does put it in perspective, when what you're looking for is competence in wiring up ring mains, lighting ciruits, showers, cookers etc.

    The new building regs will not allow you replace even one circuit, as this will be a new installation. As such you will need to be a "competent person" and a member of a body, as Lightning Rod points out.

    Indeed. And as discussed elsewhere, it's overkill and probably won't have much effect. But more importantly, what is a "competent person"? How do you become one? Looking at the NICEIC website is very interesting. It seems that if I wanted to, I could go and get C&G 2381 & 2391. 6 months (;-)) at evening classes, or if I want to follow the intensive route (much harder - no time for practice and revision. Probably almost impossible if you're inexperienced), 1 - 2 weeks full time. Yes, really.

    And then, I'm a qualified supervisor! Marvellous.

    Next I need 87 quids worth of IEE publications, which I probably already own, having done the C&G courses.

    And £700-worth of test equipment, a £350 application fee, and if I pass the assessment, that's it. So with 6 months part-time tuition, and a grand or so, and I'm enrolled with the NICEIC, and that makes me a "competent person". Well, actually no, you'll all be pleased to hear - as well as the exam passes and the tools of the trade, the NICEIC also want to see some evidence that I can walk-the-talk, and can and have actually done installations for real. A not unreasonable provision.

    Aside, that is, from the Catch-22 situation that I can't enrol with the NICEIC unless I've been trading for a year and can show them at least 5 jobs, but I'm not allowed to do any jobs unless I'm enrolled with the NICEIC....

    (There's been discussion about this on the uk.d-i-y newsgroup, BTW. Go there and search for "competent" in the message title)

    So if I was really keen to do this, how could I get started? Say I decided to jack in this computing lark (sorry, not lasers - I just found that "safety advice" amusing), and get qualified, how would I get my "competent person" badge?

    If I went and worked for somebody who was enrolled, like you, D.S., or Brightspark, at first you'd supervise me, but sooner or later you'd let me loose - there'd be no point employing me otherwise. Then what? I do installations, you come along and do visual inspections and tests? I've got C&G2391 remember, so again, I'd surely end up doing my own testing as well - after all, that's what you do. And hey presto - I'm actually doing the lot. But it's your company issuing the certificates, not me.

    So if I decided to leave and start up my own business, how do I meet the requirement of trading for a year?

    Could it be that all of this is just about large companies getting control of the electrical contracting market?

    Who has been lobbying for this extension of the building regs for the last 7 years? "The industry" - I wonder how many were one-man-band businesses.

    And from what I see of the safety record of corporate bodies involved in construction, transport, maintenance, engineering services etc, it's nothing to be proud of.

    It's easy to be cynical. It would be nice to think it's all being done because of a genuine concern for safety, but then D.S. sounds off again:

    ... can I come and do your job at weekends? For free? You could take a few days off in the week to play with the kids or go shopping. Although how you would afford food I dont know because if I'm doing your job you cant have any wages.

    Well, I'm sorry, but you've blown whatever sympathy I had for your views. On safety you have an unassailably strong position, but this? I don't care how much time, effort and money you've put into getting your qualifications and experience, THE WORLD DOES NOT OWE YOU A LIVING. You can't for ONE SECOND b1tch that DIY electrical work should be banned because it's doing you out of work. Dangerous - you are free to argue. Damaging your livelihood - tough. On that basis, would you ban gardening, so that professional gardeners can put food on their table? Or DIY decorating so that commercial painters and decorators can buy shoes for their children?

    But regarding safety, just how serious is the problem?

    Good point about fires lightning rod. How much evidence of DIY botch jobs have you seen? Perhaps we should get together and compare notes over a coffee sometime.

    How much indeed. Discard anything to do with problems from portable or fixed appliances. Discard anything to do with overloading sockets with adapters. Discard anything to do with problems of old wiring. What are you really left with?

    Including problems arising from old wiring, acording to Government statistics, the number of deaths attributable to fixed installations averages 2.6 per year. That's 2.6 too many, but in 2001, 10 people drowned in garden ponds, and 18 in 1999. I don't hear any calls for garden ponds to be banned.
     
  19. Brightspark

    Brightspark New Member

    One point you forgot to mention about NICEIC enrollment.
    To become a qualified supervisor you must (apart from what you stated) have AT LEAST 2 consecutive years supervisory or managerial responsibility for the standard of electrical installation work . In the case of a sole trader a 2 year trading period will satisfy this requirement.
    And stop trying to defend yourself LOL nobody's having a go at you, so calm down and take it easy ;).
    These boards are for advice not a slagging match.
     
  20. Gotcher

    Gotcher New Member

    Actually the above responses by Brightspark and others to whom he has been responding have been very informative. I'm not interested in getting into a slanging match here, I just wanted to say "thank you!" to the knowledgeable folks who have been taking part in these discussions.

    Just to put some meat on the bones for my own position, I recently started my own general handyman business. I wouldn't touch any "serious" electrical work like a rewire of a property even though I've done all that sort of thing in years gone by, but do feel that I'm competent enough to sell services for installing/maintaining the occasional light fitting and similar (I have C&G2381 as of earlier this year so at least have knowledge of what BS7671 is all about).

    I'm quite happy leaving the larger electrical jobs to people I would respectfully refer to as "time-served electricians". That is, people who have got the NVQ's and so on.

    I might add that I've got HNC Electronics, which according to the tutor doing the C&G2381 course had an academic standard which blew the NVQ's out of the water. But HNC Electronics is non-transferrable - to become a full sparky I've got to do the couple of years NVQ. And approaching my 50th birthday it just ain't worth the effort.

    The new regs coming into force next April are causing me real concern because maybe I won't be able to offer services in the electrical field, despite by then having C&G2391 if all goes well. It's the miserable requirement of having to join NICEIC that deeply troubles me - yet another government quango to make me waste money.

    There's no escape from the probability that the costs of providing electrical services to householders and business are going to go up as a result of the new regs.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice