PAT Testing chinese lights

Discussion in 'Electricians' Talk' started by Rick1632, May 5, 2023.

  1. Rick1632

    Rick1632 Active Member

    A friend of mine who's a DJ has bought a load of lights of Amazon - basically small LED floodlights, they're using to illuminate dance halls.

    A few issues with them though - no CE or UKCA marking on them that I can see. Currently fused with 13A fuse, but 0.75mmx3 cable, so I suggested immediately swapping for 3A fuses.

    Apparently they can't be PAT tested because of the lack of a UKCA marking - is this correct? If they pass the insulation and earth tests would it be reasonable to continue to use them?
     
  2. Bazza-spark

    Bazza-spark Screwfix Select

    Then he is responsible as the importer for applying the appropriate standards and certification. He will need to UKCA mark them. Any accidents or incidents will come back to him as the importer.

    No, completely incorrect. They should be tested in accordance with their appropriate Class, but without a CE or UKCA mark you don't know if they comply with UK requirements.

    Best option - send them back and buy a proper set, don't be a cheapskate.
     
  3. Bazza-spark

    Bazza-spark Screwfix Select

    A link to the product may be useful.
     
  4. Rick1632

    Rick1632 Active Member

    Surely the importer is the seller on Amazon? And wouldn't responsibility go on my friend rather than the seller, since my friend is presumably responsible for ensuring the safety of the electrical equipment used??

    Yes, I've already said as such - think UK manufactured equivalents cost around 4x as much though, so we're talking over £1000 more which for a small-time DJ is a big sum.


    Which bit is incorrect? The bit about not being able to PAT test them?
     
  5. Rick1632

    Rick1632 Active Member

  6. Bazza-spark

    Bazza-spark Screwfix Select

    If the seller is based in europe then they should certify them, but these are normally sold and shipped direct from China or wherever, so that makes your mate the importer, as such he takes all responsibility.

    Doesn't that tell you something

    Yes, they can be tested.

    Unfortunately that doesn't help, need the actual item.
     
  7. Tony Goddard

    Tony Goddard Screwfix Select

    UKCA and CE markings have nothing to do with PAT testing, they are manufacturing standards, PAT testing relates to the in-service inspection/testing of equipment. On average I test around 20,000 items a year, many were made long before CE & UKCA existed, some are home/workshop made to a purpose, some off the peg, from all over the globe, some stuff I test was made last year, some 50 or 60 years ago, the oldest item I test annually rolled off the production line in 1945.

    A 13A fuse on 0.75 flex is not, in of itself an issue, Henry Vacuum cleaners have a 0.75 twin flex and a 13A fuse, which is needed to handle inrush current - so you need to know why the fuse was chosen, if it works on a 3 or 5A that would seem a sensible choice.

    PAT testing is not just a bond test and insulation test, you need to look visually at the whole package, are the cord grips sufficient, is the casing well fixed together, is there access to live parts, is the plug compliant, does the flex have a standard reference on it (for example HO5 VVF)

    As a PAT tester you are only testing the appliance as it is before you for compliance with a list of criteria set out in the ACOP, unless you modify the item the importers/manufacturers hold liability for the design and its accreditation.
     
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  8. Bazza-spark

    Bazza-spark Screwfix Select

    To apply UKCA or CE marks requires knowledge of the Standards applied and checking the item actually complies. Things such as separation distances, cord anchorage etc need to be examined and proved. It isn't straight forward.
     
    Rick1632 likes this.
  9. Tony Goddard

    Tony Goddard Screwfix Select

    Exactly, which is why it's not part of the PAT testing process, as these lights don't bear any markings if asked to PAT them I would just apply the standard tests and visuals and pass/fail as appropriate. Its always better to buy from a UK importer/wholesaler, there is variable quality going direct, some is great, some not so great. At a guess I would say these will likely pass PAT ok, but will not have a long service life before the electronics gives up.
     
    Rick1632 likes this.
  10. Bazza-spark

    Bazza-spark Screwfix Select

    Completely agree, that is why I stated that it was incorrect about not being able to carry out a PAT test.

    My concern is that if the equipment doesn't comply with current Standards and carry the appropriate marking they could be unsafe. I have lobbied my MP who has signed to get these type of items removed from ebay and Amaxon.
     
    Rick1632 likes this.
  11. Bazza-spark

    Bazza-spark Screwfix Select

    In the case of that item for example, the seller is
    upload_2023-5-5_21-39-30.png

    Therefore as they are based in China they cannot apply a UK or CE mark, that has to be applied by somebody inside the UK/EU, in this case as your mate is the importer it would be his responsibility.

    Hope that makes sense.
     
  12. Rick1632

    Rick1632 Active Member


    That's not true - the item is marked as "dispatches from Amazon" -therefore the item has already been imported into the UK.
    You're correct for situations where you are receiving an item via international delivery. Amazon clearly mark such items as Imports.
     
  13. Rick1632

    Rick1632 Active Member

    Appreciate all the advice by the way Bazza and Tony. I'll press my mate to try to get one properly PAT tested - at least that way the risk is minimised somewhat, though not ideal.
     
  14. Bazza-spark

    Bazza-spark Screwfix Select

    That is a grey area. Amazon are couriers in this case and hold the item, not necessarily importers.
     
  15. Rick1632

    Rick1632 Active Member

    There is a grey area here, but not around the "import" which is black and white. In order to place items in an Amazon warehouse, you need to arrange them to be imported into the UK and all custom duties and fees paid.

    The grey area is that Amazon themselves are not in any way responsible for anything - like ebay, each seller is responsible for ensuring standards are adhered to and would face the consequences if they are not - of course in the above case, the seller would likely be beyond reach of UK law which is how they can get away with doing it - the only consequence to them is the closure of their store and they can easily open a new one.

    It's a moot point though, because the only time this would ever come up, is if there was an incident involving one of the lights, in which case I suspect the injured party would claim against the venue, which would in turn claim against my mate, who wouldn't be able to claim against the Chinese-based seller for obvious reasons, so it works out the same - the buck stops with him. (I have told him this!)
     
  16. Tony Goddard

    Tony Goddard Screwfix Select

    This is the big problem with this importing / buying via Amazon, really they should only be selling products in the UK that have been tested to our standards. It wouldn't be quite so bad if these items were accredited to say US or Canadian standards, even a Chinese standard, at least then there is a benchmark, but most of these items have no accreditations for anywhere.

    Credit to Bazza spark for raising the issue with his MP, Grenfell was started by a badly made appliance, not the fixed wiring or the cladding, and yet we have seen huge changes in the wiring regs, removal of cladding (which is justified of course) but no change to standards in regards appliances.

    Things were so much safer when they were built to BS standards and tested by the BSI labs. I would favour a situation like they have in the US, products need a UL listing to be sold, and the UL test a sample of every item to hell and back before granting a listing. The UL is backed by the insurance industry and they won't pay out if a non-listed item is the cause, which compells manufacturers and consumers to buy listed goods.

    I would PAT test, replace fuse and always make sure they are run via an RCD, never left plugged in un-attended (ie overnight) that should in theory reduce any theoretical risk to nil or near as you can get.
     
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  17. Bazza-spark

    Bazza-spark Screwfix Select

  18. Rick1632

    Rick1632 Active Member

    I believe that is the law in the UK, but it's very poorly enforced.

    Would it be normal for sockets in a public venue, e.g. a school/village hall to be run off an RCD - i.e. Would the venue be in breach of electrical regulations if they were not?
     
  19. Rick1632

    Rick1632 Active Member

    NB - if the item is 40W, a 1A fuse may be sufficient - but can you buy 1A fuses in the right size - I've only ever seen them in the tiny size?
     
  20. WH55

    WH55 Screwfix Select

    Rick1632 likes this.

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