porcelain tile outside/what to use for laying

Discussion in 'Tilers' Talk' started by watt, Jun 19, 2006.

  1. watt

    watt New Member

    I have just purchased some outside tiles for my patio area and they are porclean tiles,guy said slate ones need treated anyway he said the slate ones where not as strong and i did like the porclean ones anyway.
    I got them at a good price end of line and the guy tried to sell me bags of stuff to use for sticking them to floor/concrete and at £25 a bag and said i would need approx 4 bags of these so you can understand why i did not get any,he said this has special stuff in it that makes the tiles stick better,i said my father was a builder and he was going to use cement,he tried to tell me this is no good for this tiles and i said to my father about this and he said it was ok to use cement as long as it was real wet etcWho is right and wrong i cant see why i should pay £25 a bag when a bag of cement is much much less and would maybe do same job anyone in this line of work tell me different.
    Also after apeakingnon an another forum some say i need the proper stuff and cement will not do,what did they use all these years ago when these products where not around,my father said he has this pva that he can mix up with the cement that he is sure will do the job and im sure i read someone else did this somewhere on a forum with no problems,i am trying to save my pockets here and as for as much advise as possible so can someone let me know.
     
  2. The answer is years ago they didn't have the technology to fit porcelain tiles, as tiles of this design didn't exist.

    You need an adhesive specially designed for the products, BAL or Ardex produce adhesives formualted for use with porcelain products. Make sure the adhesive you select is frost proof and suitable for use with a porcelain tile.

    Sand/Cement will not work, it will simply break down over a period of time and will not have anywhere near the mechanical grip of a cement based adhesive.

    PVA in the sand cement mix simply won't do anything other than reduce the mechanical stregth of the mix. It is also not frost proof.

    Also if you've bought this product from one of the high street chains, Tile Magic, Topps etc, it's highly likely to be a porcelain of Asian or Oriental origin and will most likely requre some form of sealant.

    If you want a cheap patio area, you've bought the wrong product, you should have gone with indian sandstone/slate at a suitable thickness and your father could have happily laid these on a sand/cement bed in the manner of a patio.
     
  3. watt

    watt New Member

    **** so i purchased the wrong tiles then?I had been looking at slate and sandstone tiles but i wanted whatever i thought looked nice,as i had looked for a while and nothing i seen i liked too much or was way too expensive,and i asked about these tiles and guy said i could use them outside and they where probably stronger than the slate and as i did not like the colours of the slate much i went for the porcelain.
    One bonus was that these where about to be discontinued and i save a lot of money on them and for one reason i made the purchase but i and my father had no idea of what they had to be layed on,my father being a part time builder not tiler thought cement would do and so i did not buy any stuff and i was shocked when i purchased the tiles the guy tried to say i needed these bags of stuff to lay them on,i thought it was just a con to spend more money but now i am hearing that this stuff is a must,is it really a must will my job just fall apart if i used cement as cost are far better than these tiles adhesives.
    I did buy the tiles from topps and this is where i was going to buy the adhesive,i need to know what i need to give no problems,maybe they are selling the most expensive stuff and maybe its just the stuff i need but i do need to know the name and kind of stuff i need and how heavy the bags are and how many i would need for approx 21 square meters,the guy did say something like 4 bags of this would be enough,as i said these tiles are for outside and i will be laying them on cement and is my patio area where i will be sitting out on in warm days and hanging out washing and in general walking about on the area maybe often but not too much and i need to know how many bags i need,also i thought that these bags was expensive and was wondering who else sells them online and high street and maybe cheaper bulk rates or whatever as im sure topps will be top price,maybe not.
    I plan to go there tuesday to collect the remaining boxes of tiles i need that they was short of and can get stuff from there or if i know of anywhere else thats cheaper,so getting this advise in advance asap would be great.
    If i had known that porcelain tiles needed special stuff to lay them on maybe i would have went for slate or something i had no idea,as laying stuff may end up costing me more than what the tiles did.
    Im not sure if you get these bags in 20kg or 25kg bags but if they are about that or bigger i need to know how much i need and best place to get etc and also what kind of bed i need to lay on the cement i have outsise,i take it my fathers builders trowel will be ok for the job what is it with these ones the sell with teeth on them,its only a one off job and trying to keep my costs down so the more advise you can give the better,you have been very helpfull so far.
     
  4. britishblue

    britishblue New Member

    Mudster is the tile and stone expert on this forum. However, he suggested two manufacturers, BAL and Ardex. I suggest that you find their websites, where you should find detailed instructions on which product to use, and how to apply it.

    BB
     
  5. Firstly, please use parapgraph breaks when posting, it makes your text easier to read and you're likely to get more useful responses.

    There is nothing wrong with porcelain tiles as an external product, you haven't been sold a wrong product, just not what you were expecting.

    These are thin tiles which require a solid well prepared base and a suiablt frost proof adhesive with which to fit them.

    The amoun of adhesive required depends completely on how flat or regular your concrete base is. Also the tiles need a solid bed of adhesive under them, they can't simply be dot and dabbed which is the usual builder practice.

    Personally, I think you should take them back, expalin they aren't suitable and get a refund, then instead of going to tile shops go to builders merchants and stone wholesaelr in garden centreas and get some Indain Sandstone, Chinese slate etc and get your Dad to lay it like a patio.

    Try companies like these:- although these are my competitors, I'm not in the same part of the market that they are, we don't generally do external products, ours is more what you'll find in the Hilton Hotel foyer.

    http://www.stone4less.com/indian_sandstonepaving.htm

    http://www.rock-unique.com/

    Both of these comapnies will be able to prvoide you with a far more suitable product which your father can fit using his existing tried and tested methods.
     
  6. watt

    watt New Member

    Well if i had known now what i did not back then,i may have tried and picked a slate or sandstone,but as nothing to date i liked the look of i went for these porcelain ones and liked the look of them better than anyothers to date and the biggest bonus was they where discontinued which meant i saved a small fortune about £300 to be exact i saved on the price of them i was quoted £480 for them on the amount i needed and guy told me they where discontinued and i would save even much more and i more or less got all the required ones i needed for about £190 so a big saving there,so really buying these adhesive bags is still going to be cheap overall but you know how it is when i have saved a lot on the tiles and i did not know about what they where layed on i wanted to save by using cement,but its not the case,i needed three boxes to get the req amount and have to collect them from shop tuesday and i want to see what adhesive i may require while there or if there was other places that may sell it less,would b&q sell these adhesives less than topps?

    If i had paid the full amount for these tiles and i now found out i needed the adhesive then yes i would have took them back,but as i got them much less i was over the moon,my father is a part time builder and does many big and small jobs so knows what he is doing and also does his own bathroom tileing inside house so im sure he will be able to this job easy,he maybe did not know as much about porcelain as i thought as cement and pva was the stuff he was going to use but we know different now.

    I have as i said have a flat and upstairs outside have a varanda,if that how you spell it outside my patio doors and its the only bit of ground i have outside its not ground level but up another level and somewhile ago i have a problem with the area as the felt had gone and leaked in shop downstairs and we laid some cement down to sort it out a cheaper method that ripping up roof etc that was not required and i have a layer of cement in this area,with what i want to finish off with tiles one day.
    Its a roof and i did get some slate tiles sometime ago and thought they where real heavy,still probably would have been ok but i just thought the choices where dull in colour,maybe not a lot of choice my way,so when i seen these porcelain ones i thought these would be perfect and they are lighter as well.

    So what i need to know to help my father out and incase he goes about things wrong way is does he need those special trowels with the teeth on them for laying the adhesive?
    Or will his builder trowel do,i already have two 3.5kg bags of grout i got from topps which the guy said i would need to do my 21 square meters when grouting so all i need now is the adhesive i think they come in 20kg or 25 kg bags i need to know what amount would be enough,the shop said about three and half bags would they be right?

    I dont know what kind of layer my father would need to lay on the cement but i dont think it would be much as i have a patio door ledge there etc,i also have an edge that will end higher than another part of my patio area which is next to felt,well on same level but it ends there as there is a drain at the end i take it that this would be finished off there with the grout,im sure my father will know what he is doing there.

    But as for what adhesive i really need and what else i should get im unsure as i want him to start the job sometime soon,if i had know about this adhesive before i may have picked something different but they are nice and i do want to lay them.
    I take it the only thing he needs to use between the tiles and cement is this adhesive and build a bed according to what he thinks,i did want to know i will be getting new windows which does not affect the area but i will be getting patio doors fitted and wondered if these guys make a mess when they are done as its going to be about 14 weeks before they can come and do the door and i cant wait that long, need to enjoy my summer in my patio.

    I take it these guys would make a neat job when it comes to fitting and damageing my tiles around area,just thought i would include this too.

    thanks for your help so far but if you could reply to the above one more time that will be great.
     
  7. To be honest, I'm struggling to understand what you're trying to explain.

    My advice would be get an experienced tiler to come and look at your requirements. They can then provide specific advice as to the suitability and condition of the existing substrate.
     
  8. jasonb

    jasonb New Member

    I'm giving up on this one. Told the guy on another site he needs tile adhesive, what type of trowel to use and gave him a link to BAL's Fixing guide that shows nice pictures of trowel, gives coverage rates etc.

    Now it seems he could be laying it onto a flat roof I assume asphalt that has been bodged with his dads favorite cement!!

    Jason
     
  9. watt

    watt New Member

    Yes thats right i have a veranda(not sure if right spelling but outside my kitchen patio doors is a veranda and this are is about say 22 spquare meters.
    When i purchased the house some 13/14 years ago,outside on the deck of the veranda which is the roof of the back end of shop the past owners or before them laid felt on the roof and then small little tiles but over the years some came loose and,while i was away traveling the shop owner contacted me saying that there was water coming in from there roof inside,it only seemed to happen one bad day but never really been that bad since.
    I contacted my insurance that told me they would not cover me and that the felt was probably done and that the life span of the felt was past and was wear and tear,so they would not look at me,it could have been a major job to fix rip up old tiles and fely then see whatever was under that and expose the roof of the shop,my father said you was not going to be living here all your life which i am not and as insurance would not look at me and as my father knew it could cost thousands maybe and open a can of worms,asked a guy that was a roofer to have a look and was told the best and cheapest method of sorting this out would be to lay a layer of cement on top of the felt.

    So now i have a roof with felt and layer of cement on top,as i said i wanted to finish the job off with tiles they did a quick job,now that i have my tiles i am now ready to pay them so if i did not explain what i was laying or doing i am sorry but thats what i am doing its not ground level and is above back of shop my outside/shop roof.
    So slabs or anything like that would probably be too heavy,maybe slate too but i dont think so,i hope thats put people in the picture better but anyway unless i get more feedback before tuesday i will be going back to topps to get the adhesive and i take it this is what i need,i will just have to take the guy in shops word what amount of bags i will need and hope that the job works out ok,thanks for some advise on this.
     
  10. jasonb

    jasonb New Member

    I just hope the felt roof is not on a timber roof.

    Find out what is under the felt, if it is timber boards on timber joists I would not tile it as it is. The usual way to tile onto three layer felt is to bond fibre cement tiles to the felt with hot pitch.

    If you must tile it you will need a felxible adhesive and flexible grout, both of these are stocked by Topps BUT THEY WILL PROBABLY COST MORE than regular tile adhesive.
     
  11. watt

    watt New Member

    But as the roof still felt and sounded strong,we did not lift the felt to check what was under, instead layed a layer of cement down to seal the water from going into the shop with felt still underneath.

    The tiles would be going on to this cememnt i mention,why would i need flexible as maybe there is movement in my roof?So maybe this £25 a bag was not this stuff and the less expensive,i will know better when i go back to topps tuesday as i have the remaining boxes to collect.

    you reckon i need a thickbed solid bed trowel,why in the pics is there these groves in the bed of adhesive,whats the reason for that i thought it would need to be flat?But i see this kind of trowel will allow this groves and a normal builders one no good,this sure is turning out to be an expensive job,just when i thought tiles and cement would be enough more is needed and not cement.
    I wish i had now gone with the slate as it would have been more to my fathers taste and used to,but never mind im sure he will do it well.
     
  12. Ghost-1

    Ghost-1 Active Member

    THIS HAS GOT TO BE A WIND UP.

    Either that..........or this guy has escaped from the local care in the community nut house?
     
  13. watt

    watt New Member

    Get a life mate,you probably know nothing about anything,my father has probably done more work in a day than you have in a week and bigger jobs than you have seen or would be able to do sometimes on your own,so unless you have some advise get a life.
    My old man gets so many work he has to refuse work sometimes as its not his full time job and does not have time to do them all and as others have seen his work why he gets offered and does so many jobs.
    I am not sure who you are takeing the **** out of me or him but the roof was fixed like this as was best and cheapest method for me at the time and has been no problem since,maybe not the ideal way or right way to be done but as long as it does the job and when i sell my house in a few years and its tiled,who will know?
     
  14. bathstyle

    bathstyle Active Member

    watt,

    It sounds like you are in way over your head. May I suggest that you seek professional advice on your installation. I would hate to think that the work is bodged just for the sake of the cost of adhesive and incorrect substrate preparation work.

    Get an expert in and feel free to ask any further questions once you have had a detailed Quotation
     
  15. If this is a felt roof over timber construction why has it got a layer of sand/cement on it?

    Get someone round that knows what they're doing.
     
  16. Ghost-1

    Ghost-1 Active Member

    Well if your gonna do the job...........do it properly, instead of farting about and trying to save money by BODGING. USE THE RIGHT STUFF THAT YOU HAVE BEEN ADVISE BY SUPPLIERS AND ENDLESS PEOPLE ON HERE

    Just cos your father is a part time builder.....he, by the sounds of it, is'nt as clever as you make him out to be. So LISTEN to what people on here have suggested.

    From what I have read, and I got bored with it after a while. YOU need to strip the felt and boarding right back to joists and then reboard with 25mm waterproof ply and then use flexible cement and flexible grout. NOT just cement and whatever is lying about. If that means you have to spend money on getting the RIGHT stuff..........then tooo bad. If not, bodge it now.........and it will come back and bite ya ***.

    And thanks for asking...........YES i am as busy, if not busier than you father. Thats it.....off to bed now, another busy day tomorrow.
     
  17. watt

    watt New Member

    Because it was an easy,cheap and quick option of fixing the problem i had.The roof is still solid and nowbody here has seen the job in hand,i had a roofer have a look and said the way the roof/patio area had been done long time ago should not have been done the way it was and agreed with father the cheapest and quickest option of fixing the leak problem was to lay a layer of cement down on the felt as it could have been a nightmare of a job otherwise and costly.
    The owners downstairs did not have a major leak it was just damage to there plaster boards on roof,and with this layer of cement now on and has been for about a 8 months now has been fine since,around this area i have a wall,so everything is fine in that area.

    I thought i might need flexible rapidset but im not laying it on a moveable floor its a cement base on my patio area and so i am going to buy the normal rapid stuff not flexi.
    As i now know i best use the stuff i am supposed to use,my father said its my fault in getting the wrong tiles and my fault i have to pay a bit for the adhesive,but i have no idea.
    But never mind i did save heaps on the tiles and so can get the stuff still well under budget,i just thought there was other ways of doing things that could work out less but not the case here.
    Im still being told by a few people here that pva and the cement woudld do the job but may not last and this is why i am getting the right adhesive as i dont want to have the tiles coming loose some months down the line.
    But anyway thanks for the help guys i now have a better idea on the stuff i need and dont need and have had a lot of feedback on the subject so thanks again.
    If only i had stuck to my first choice of slate tiles then i could have used the cement and this is far cheaper than these adhesive bags for £2.50 compared to £25 for 25kg bags you can understand where i am coming from i suppose i should have asked or checked out laying stuff costs before buying tiles.
     
  18. Exactly how thick is the layer of cement that you've added to your non strucutural flat wooden roof? Out of curiosity....to which you intend to add another layer of tiles and adhesive.

    Have you actually considered how much all this weighs and if the roof is actually structurally capable of tsking it all?

    I'm starting to think this is a complete wind up, if it isn't it's doozy!
     
  19. watt

    watt New Member

    Until you have seen the job in hand you really cant say what it and is not,its been like that alomost a year now and still fine to this day,my other options where that i would have to lift up the felt and roof and whatever else and may have cost in the thousands to sort,it was not as if tons of water was soaking the roof downstairs probably a few small area letting water through felt and the loose tiles i had down before as downstairs plaster on roof was all black with water damage.
    Rather than open a can of worms layed a small layer of sand/cement mix on top of the felt and there has been no leaks since,i am unsure what is under the felt but the jeasts would be fine it takes years for them to rot thats if its wood,it maybe steel as there is a wall in my patio area as well on roof so im sure the layer of cement if fine,i have not fallen though it yet and its still there so i cant see a problem,anyway the weight is spread out and not all in one area,if my old man thought the roof was not safe for this cement they he would not have done it.
    Two of them said it was the best option and cheapest for me and they are not cowboys,it may sound it but in fact unless you have seen the job in hand to cant coment.
    He has built houses,garages,walls,conservotories,log blocking,drives,tileing and plastering and many other jobs and people keep asking him back for more and word of mouth how good a job he does,and why he is so busy,so he knows what was best?well not best but for price and quickness,in an ideal world it was not the right way to go about it but how cares,when i sell my house in a few years who is going to know what is under the tiles or whatever and it will not be a problem of mine then.

    Anyway i have my rapidset stuff now and he will be starting the job on friday,i wish i never asked for advise on these forums as i got into more detail than i should have and i did not want advise on how the roof should have been done just if cement and pva was ok instead of these adhesive bags for my tiles and after the advise and talking to a roofer i was advised i better used the right stuff,cement will do but not last i was told and i dont want that.
    So thanks and this subject is now ended.
     

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