recently fitted upvc windows, little or no reveal showing inside

Discussion in 'Other Trades Talk' started by natto, Nov 5, 2014.

  1. natto

    natto New Member

    20141105_202636.jpg 20141105_202719.jpg 20141105_202828.jpg 20141105_202952.jpg 20141105_202636.jpg 20141105_202719.jpg 20141105_202828.jpg 20141105_202952.jpg 20141105_202636.jpg We recently had replacement upvc windows fitted throughout the house, on two of the windows there is little reveal - window frame showing inside with just mm showing at the sides and the bottom, with not even the same width showing top, bottom or at the both sides. It looks odd, the fitter says it is because our walls ahd been re-plastered and it is out of wack, though it is the same plaster he measured during the survey. The fitter says we are being picky and the windows are normal.
    We also said that we would be tiling some cills, but we have been left with such a small amount of frame, we can't now do this.
    Throughout the house the reveals are of different widths, ranging from just a few mm to approx 9cm, this makes the windows look as if they are different styles and not having been fitted at the same time, again the fitter says this is normal, though we have had upvc windows fitted in previous houses and never had been windows looking like this.
    My dad is a carpenter and says he thinks they have been made to fit the outside messurement and not taken into account the inside measurements, therefore they are too big, hence little visible frame showing inside.
    Should we have expected a uniform look to all the windows, with similar amounts of frame on show on all the windows ? The fitter syas if this is what we wanted (uniform frame showing) that we should have asked for it ? Is this correct or are we being picky ?
    The opionion of a professional window fitter would be auch appreciated .
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2014
  2. Jitender

    Jitender Screwfix Select

    I had a similar problem in a house, the company used only measured the outside brick openings.

    The windows were aluminum, so had a much smaller profile than UPVC ones. With aluminum windows I know that deep frames are available, which would have rectified this.
  3. Phil the Paver

    Phil the Paver Screwfix Select

    Pics would help a lot, both inside and out if poss.
  4. Biffo

    Biffo Member

    the windows have been miss measured the surveyor has only taken external sizes and he hasnt checked the internals schoolboy error
    you are not being picky !!! i bet it looks a right mess

    the only solution is remakes . with either large outerframe or 15/25mm add on either side this will bring the internal sight lines in plenty

    with the tiles cill i bet you will be almost level with the glazing bead

    dont pay till remakes are fitted
  5. Mr. Handyandy

    Mr. Handyandy Screwfix Select

    I agree completely with Biffo. Exactly what knock-on/add-on is designed for. You should have approximately the same width of frame showing all round, and it probably should be 25mm from the outer edge of the bead.

    Mr. HandyAndy - Really
    tore81 likes this.
  6. natto

    natto New Member

    miss measured, yes that is what we thought, though fitter completely denies this and says they are normal !
    As for the tiling, we had planned to tile the cill and sidewall in the bathroom, but now can't tile the sidewall as the tiles would overhang the window, in the kitchen, again we can't tile as planned, our only option is to chip off some of the cill in order to get the tiles to fit. It seems a bit unreasonable to us to have to do so much remedial work, when surely the windows should have fitted in with what was already there ?

  7. Mr. Handyandy

    Mr. Handyandy Screwfix Select

    PLEASE tell me that is not the silver foil that goes round the window(the glass sealed unit)) that I can see on the glass!!!

    Mr. HandyAndy - Really
  8. Biffo

    Biffo Member

    IT IS !!!!!!! *** The units are way too small

    silver tape ??? not been used in years
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2014
  9. Jitender

    Jitender Screwfix Select

    I hope it wasn't Anglian that fitted them?

    Again poor surveying.
  10. natto

    natto New Member

    no, not silver foil, must be a reflection
  11. Jitender

    Jitender Screwfix Select

    As the window are internally glazed, it going to be a job to replace any failed/damaged units in future. As the trims are covered.
  12. natto

    natto New Member

    no, not anglian, but local firm. Apparantly the fitter/surveyor has been doing this for over 30 years and not one of his previous customers has ever complained !
    I expected all the windows to have a similar amount of frame showing on the inside, as I have had in previous houses, but according to the fitter, if I wanted something special (As opposed to what they installed, i presume) then i shoukd gave asked for it !
  13. Mr. Handyandy

    Mr. Handyandy Screwfix Select

    In this picture here?[​IMG]
  14. Mr. Handyandy

    Mr. Handyandy Screwfix Select

    Centreing a window is STANDARD, NOT needing special requests.

    What you have been told, is BULL.

    Mr. HandyAndy - Really
  15. Biffo

    Biffo Member

    and it looks like the obscure glass ( cotswold ) has been cut the wrong way
  16. Phil the Paver

    Phil the Paver Screwfix Select

    I thought that, shouldn't the pattern go upright, top to bottom.
  17. This is a new one to me. But if they did amend the frames to make them the same inside, wouldn't that mean they'd be different outside (or would it not be so noticeable?)

    Ok, apart from the narrow reveals, and the glass going t'wrong way, and the possibly visible foil, it looks neat enough... :rolleyes:

    Would a possible solution - other than ripping out and starting again - be for the installers to pay for a day's work by a plasterer to cut away an inch of the cill & sides and make good at a lower level? Messy I know, but looking at options.
    Doall likes this.
  18. natto

    natto New Member

    Apologies , the photos seem to have gone the wrong way round, first two have gone sideways and the last one upside down, I will try and reload them.
    The fitter has suggested removing the current plaster and replastering to get a better finish, but this would be on four windows and at our expense, he is not offering to cover the cost of replastering, as he thinks the windows are normal.

    It is very reassuring to read your comments, as the fitter has been so forceful in his opinion that the work he has done is normal, acceptable and made us out to be picky.
    They are coming back to put some other faults right, a sloping window and door, but he is seemingly unmoveable on his opinion on the other windows. We are wondering how to proceed, he does not appear to belong to any organisation that can help, only fensa who it looks like only deal with complaints if fitters fail to meet building regs ?, so we are not sure where to go to for help. Should be get another company in for a second opinion ? trading standards ?
    We have not paid yet, where would we stand only paying for the windows and doors we are happy with ? It says on the invoice that we do not own any windows or doors until all monies are paid.
  19. Firstly, I have to make it clear that I just don't know if this is an 'ok' or 'acceptable' fitting or not. I simply don't know.

    Most on here do seem to reckon it's wrong; that the installer took only the external dimensions into account and didn't check to see if the internal reveals were, perhaps, unusually deep in comparison.

    Although a talented bunch :rolleyes: offering useful advice, you do need to take into account that we are 'just' anonymous forum users and our opinions won't carry any weight with your installer.

    So, if you wish to pursue this, you will need an independent professional opinion.

    Of course the fitter doesn't want to budge on this issue - imagine what it will cost him?! A set of new windows, and then a new install!

    BUT. If it is 'wrong', then it is quite simply unacceptable. And you haven't paid - so you hold the ace card.

    Ok, where do you stand in only paying for the windows & doors you are happy with? On solid ground.

    However, that doesn't mean you can simply refuse to pay for the other windows and tell them to go away; they need to be given the clear, legal opportunity to put things right.

    It seems pretty clear to me that you first need this independent professional opinion. I don't know where to get this, but there must be somewhere! This might (almost certainly will) cost a bit of money, so I would say - in writing - to the installer that if you are forced to go this route, and the survey backs up your case, you will deduct the cost of this investigation from their bill; ie - they should pay for it.

    Assuming that this report does then back you up and agree the cosmetic effect inside is unacceptable, you have the installer over a barrel. Time to give them some options:

    1) Remove and replace with the 'right' windows.
    2) Cut away and remake the internal reveals - at THEIR cost.
    3) Accept a whopping discount - ooh, around 50%?

    If they fail to do this (or anything else that's acceptable to you), you inform them you will get another installer to fit the correct windows and you will sue them for the cost (less, of course, what you haven't already paid them.)

    You will win.

    I think it's time to have a nice sit-down chat over a cuppa with this installer. Be calm, reasonable and empathetic; tell him you understand his dilemma, but that you are NOT being unreasonable - the windows just LOOK completely 'wrong' and are a huge cosmetic failure in your home - you grimace every time you look at them. You have garnered opinions on this from a number of different trades, and they agree unanimously that the inside dimensions of the openings SHOULD have been taken into account. You ARE prepared to get an independent professional report done to back this up if necessary, and you will need to deduct this from the amount you owe them since they forced you into this situation.

    Then tell him what you are prepared to accept.

    Whatever you agree or disagree, you'll have to put it in writing and ensure he receives a copy. You need to follow the correct legal procedure for this - I'm not sure of the exact details, but it has to be clear you gave them the opportunity to put things right and they refused to do so before you can then get someone else to redo the work.

    Show that you are being reasonable by agreeing to pay for the 'ok' part of the install. Just make sure that what you hold back will easily cover the replacement of the unacceptable windows.

    You might want to get another window company in to quote for just doing these windows, so's you'll know how much to hold back from the bill. It'll also be interesting to hear what they have to say about the reveals, but bear in mind it will not be a truly independent opinion. Er, don't be too surprised if the other company looks at you askance and worry that you may be an awkward customer they may not want to deal with! But, hopefully, they will absolutely agree that it chust ain't good enough, and will say with confidence that they will sort it.

    Good luck.

    (Ignore the installer's comments like "No-one else has ever complained", "It's always done like this" etc - these are all completely meaningless. I mean, what else would he say?!)
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 6, 2014
  20. Phil the Paver

    Phil the Paver Screwfix Select

    DAs hit the nail on the head in the above post, every thing he's said is good advise.

    Can I ask, did the windows removed have an even amount of frame showing internally, were the frames an unusual sizes? disproportionately large for their style, only asking because if they were then the salesman/woman, fitter should have noticed this and wondered why.

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