Removing ceiling joists Help!

Discussion in 'Builders' Talk' started by screwfox, Jun 16, 2007.

  1. screwfox

    screwfox New Member

    Not as drastic as it sounds, but please bear with me and give some advice.

    Firstly the ouse is a single storey stone built cottage.

    My lounge has had the rear wall removed many years ago and a small extension added (approx 4ft pushed out). The brickwork above this opening is supported on an RSJ. Fixed to the brickwork (nailed) approx 2ft above the RSJ is a wall plate. Stringers come down from the wallplate to joists which are wedged into the web of the RSJ and extend out to the wooden lintol over the window (the window supports the lintol). The roof rafters are fixed to the wall plate and then nailed to the lintol (they do not extend beyond the lintol, so have no birds mouth).

    (thanks for reading so far!)
    Now, my questions:

    1) I'm about to replace the window with one with the same dimensions, I intend to use a couple of Acro props to support the ceiling and roof whilst I rip the old window out and stick the new one in, does this sound feasable? I will be leaving the lintol in, obviously.

    2) I'd really like to remove the ceiling and have it open to the rafters and fit a velux to get more light into the room. Would removing the rafters cause the roof to push the window out? Would I have to strengthen the wall plate to wall fixing (say with anchor bolts or the like) as I will have removed the stringers with the joists?

    3) Should I get a structural engineer to have a look before I do anything? If so, what do they charge for having a look?

    Thanks in advance.
     
  2. ..repost your Q again without all the waffle old chap
     
  3. screwfox

    screwfox New Member

    As usual, your advice is worth what we pay for it. Why do you feel the need to reply to posts and yet add nothing of any use? Are you short of friends?
     
  4. building control

    building control New Member

    1- yes
    2- yes and yes
    3- probably
     
  5. deacon

    deacon New Member

    1- yes
    2- yes and yes
    3- probably

    1.Why would he use accrows to replace a window , the lintol has not been changed , just the window, interested
     
  6. deacon

    deacon New Member

    Changing the window seems fine
    Velux is fine as well ,you will have to trim around the velux , doubling up rafters etc ,you must know a carpenter for this , he will do it quite easy , I don't see any problems.
    Structural engineer , not my choice ,charges are quite high and I feel not required for such a simple job .
    The carpenter is the key , velux windows are placed everyday no problem , hope this helps
     
  7. girlie builder

    girlie builder New Member

    1.Why would he use accrows to replace a window , the
    lintol has not been changed , just the window,
    interested

    wooden lintel with load directly on it - why not play safe? May get away without props but is it worth the risk?
     
  8. deacon

    deacon New Member

    1.Why would he use accrows to replace a window ,
    the
    lintol has not been changed , just the window,
    interested

    wooden lintel with load directly on it - why not play
    safe? May get away without props but is it worth the
    risk?

    So the window is load bearing
     
  9. Charlie Far!ey

    Charlie Far!ey New Member

    Sounds like its built ok then

    First understand that the window does NOT support the lintel. The lintel affords zero head load as it supports all above it and does not supplement the load anomolies with another component. The window should come out and be replacable without any need for props.

    The other guy (I cant see his name cos Im in edit mode) says correctly that it needs trimmings around the proposed opening he describes it well so i dont need to.

    If you have huge wads of cash get a SE but why? He states the obvious (...in this context) and bills you several hundred quid to tell you what you already know.

    The person who built this knew what he(or she) was doing and has done it right. The structure takes the load of the roof and will be there for some time to come.

    So clear out ceiling - Fix trimmings - Fit Velux window - Fit other window - make roof good - Put the kettle on and have a cup of tea.

    Easy Peasy
     
  10. Mr. Handyandy

    Mr. Handyandy Screwfix Select

    farley, it has been known for a window to support a lintel, with the lintel having no bearing on the end walls.

    If this is the case(it's rare) then the lintel will indeed need supporting.


    We used to cut windows out, and if the saw jammed while cutting out the centre mullion, we supported it(unless we could see obvious support). If it didn't jam, we carried on :)

    On the ceiling front, removing the joists is a rather ominous idea.



    Mr. HandyAndy - really
     
  11. girlie builder

    girlie builder New Member

    So the window is load bearing

    shouldnt be, but as i said why take the risk? How solid is the wood? If your not sure use props its worth it for the peace of mind.

    A builder on site can assess it, on here its guesswork so play safe.
     
  12. Jimbo

    Jimbo Screwfix Select

    Re removing ceiling joists, these are usually operating in tension. Without them the weight of the tiles will continually be pushing the ^ shape flat, in other words it will collapse and may well take the walls with it.

    Sorry if I've not understood correctly - if you were talking about converting it to a vaulted ceiling, you can't do it without a completely new roof and a ring of steel around the tops of the walls.

    Cheers!
     
  13. deacon

    deacon New Member

    So the window is load bearing

    shouldnt be, but as i said why take the risk? How
    solid is the wood? If your not sure use props its
    worth it for the peace of mind.

    A builder on site can assess it, on here its
    guesswork so play safe.

    The window will not be load bearing , take your last point though
     
  14. Mr. Handyandy

    Mr. Handyandy Screwfix Select

    So the window is load bearing

    shouldnt be, but as i said why take the risk? How
    solid is the wood? If your not sure use props its
    worth it for the peace of mind.

    A builder on site can assess it, on here its
    guesswork so play safe.

    The window will not be load bearing , take your last
    point though



    It MIGHT be.



    Mr. HandyAndy - really
     
  15. Trog

    Trog New Member

    The only way you can have a vaulted roof is to incorporate a steel 'goalpost' structure to take the outward thrust of the roof. No way should you just take out the ceiling joists as they are integral to the roof structure and prevent the walls from being pushed out.
    Get a structural engineer involved. It will cost you a few hundred but at least you'll have a safe roof.
    Also, as Andy says, the window may well be loadbearing.
     
  16. Charlie Far!ey

    Charlie Far!ey New Member

    As usual the gippos from the Blackspur Posse ride into town - Starting with King Gippo ...

    Now lets analyse what the Gippo has to offer.

    Mr. Handjobman

    Posts: 8,070
    Registered: Jul 4, 2004
    Re: Removing ceiling joists Help!
    Posted: Jun 17, 2007 8:04 PM
    Reply

    Mr Farley, it has been known for a window to support a lintel, with the lintel having no bearing on the end walls. (when fitted by Handjoman "wiv a yers warnty as well missus")

    If the lintel needs supporting then its not a lintel or YOU fitted it you pikey. If it needs 'support' of any kind then replace it immediately with one that dont - Thats how you tell its a lintel or header.

    If this is the case(it's rare) then the lintel will indeed need supporting. (fluuuuuusssssssssh)

    We used to cut windows out, and if the saw jammed while cutting out the centre mullion, we supported it(unless we could see obvious support). If it didn't jam, we carried on

    You talk such nonsense you bodger The glass would have given out long before you claim the frames deformed - Dreamer! Putting a saw in your control is like giving a babboon a bazooka - You joke

    On the ceiling front, removing the joists is a rather ominous idea.




    ...This is a building not a caravan you gippo

    Theres a few tiny indicators that reveal how stupid a man you are

    1 - The rafters go where?
    A - to a wall plate or a header plate

    2 - A window or door inset in a timber frame has a ....
    A - Header

    3 - How do you know?
    A - You look over the top of the window

    4 - The load is being reduced on the roof cos a hole is being cut in it for a window so why does it need supporting?
    A - It doesnt

    5 - What would a SE calculate?
    A - Vertical downward load - (values available from stock catalogues) so he doesnt even need to visit the site.
    6 - What would the SE say?
    A - The structure will support the reduced load cos your window weighs less than the same amount of tiles, roof ing materials etc.

    Note the 'dont cut the joists bit'

    PS Handjobman - Hows your fat smelly Ol lady? As if I care. I havent see the fat sl@g for ages
     
  17. yorkshireboy

    yorkshireboy Member

    From what I can work out from his post the ceiling joists are not fixed to the rafters so they won,t be tying the roof.
    As was said in an earlier thread if the roof has purlins the load is on the walls .There are countless old vaulted roofs staying up without a steel goalpost structure.
     
  18. Charlie Far!ey

    Charlie Far!ey New Member

    Jimbo

    "Re removing ceiling joists, these areusually operating in tension. Without them the weight of the tiles will continually be pushing the ^ shape flat, in other words it will collapse and may well take the walls with it....

    ...are usually Jimbo but this one is in compression - Think about it....fixed one end and the turning moment is clockwise so you havent got this '^' but this '\' so if you took apart the wall then it would collapse inward as the load swivels inward in a clockwise downward direction

    The structure is easy to convert but you must consider the joists are a key component you simply cant just chop them out before they have been substitued with greater or equal supports.
     
  19. Mr. Handyandy

    Mr. Handyandy Screwfix Select

    farley, you are just digging a deeper hole for your perverted self.



    The window which may or may not have a lintel ONLY supported by the window frame, has NO relevance whatsoever to the velux wanted in the roof.

    Hahahahahahaha.

    Now we are led to believe by you pompous twit, that a roof does NOT spread OUTWARDS if it is not attached at the bottom of the rafters.

    Hahahahahahahaha Oh hahahahaha.


    Crawl back under your greasy stone, slimeball.


    And oh, so the frame of a window WITH a lintel on top will break the glass BEFORE the frame moves at all.


    Hmmmmm ?



    Hahahahahahahahahahahaha oh hhahahahahahahahaha



    Mr. HandyAndy - really
     
  20. Charlie Far!ey

    Charlie Far!ey New Member

    Errrrr.........of course you slimey, bloated slob

    So has the fat ** run off with a man who has a ** then?

    *

    [Edited by: admin5]
     

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