I said I voted for it, not that I wanted it. Politics is a funny thing, we have to pick the route that ticks most of the boxes for us, a leaving vote for me won by a narrow margin, so I voted leave. What I would have preferred was for the EU to change, to move away from the Federation it was becoming and be more of a trading community, remember the 'Common Market?' I don't like RM, he is not to be trusted, but the EU must change or it will become a monster that rivals all of the demons you list above. We have tried to initiate change from within, and failed miserably, for me their is no option but to leave and show others the way for the future. Perhaps that may open some eyes and initiate the change required before it's too late for the EU.
Yes, a vote often comes down to the lesser of two perceived evils - but from such increments is political and societal development gradually made. It ain't perfect, but it is democracy. And, yes, I'd like to see changes to the EU too - and if by some miracle we remain in, I think changes will now happen after this shock. At this point we diverge - unless you can give a reasoned reason for saying "it will become a monster that rivals all of the demons you list above." That's some hyper-bole. What 'monster' exactly? Have you not watched recently as the Chancellor of Germany (GERMANY!) and the Pres of France expressed and shared the values - and warnings - that us Brits used to vocalise and hold so dear - before we made such a lurching move to try and destroy it? Not intentionally, perhaps, but an undoubted side-effect. If you want a 'monster', imagine the EU destroyed - broken up - and a Trump as Chancellor of Germany. (You might not want the EU 'destroyed', but the u-s on here do - they have made that very clear.) And yet it's the usual 'pects on here who have posted pictures of Merkel with a swastika and (ab)use avatars of Churchill for themselves. SF's own Infowars. (Oh, is that not an ex-Infowars cove who's now advising UKIP?) Churchill will be rolling in his grave, and Hitler laughing.
Allsorts, You are very passionate about this issue, OK I understand that. The issue I try to make about the 'monster' is not yet factual but it is extrapolated from the behaviour of man and the effect that power has on man. ANY organisation that wields immense power, be it Trump or the EU, must be held responsible for the use of that power by the electorate, that is Democracy. Unfortunately the ability of one EU state to Veto the others is not an example of democracy in the true sense. It is issues such as this that need to be resolved within the EU to prevent it becoming that monster. After Mrs May's appearance on TV today I see trouble ahead.
Spot on Bob. The leavers have consistently pointed out the advantages of leaving, all the remainers can do is concoct artificial facts to discredit leaving. The leavers have shown good debating skills by not going on about the huge disadvantages of remaining. Harry.
No one knows, so much spin and lies have been used that the truth is difficult, if not impossible to find. We must follow our own hearts (and gut feelings) on this and accept that others may have different views without trying to rubbish or belittle them.
Yes, I am very passionate about this issue, Bob, because it transcends politics and economics; it's about values, and the type of world we want for our kids. Thank you for accepting that the monster you fear is not yet factual, but forgive me if I have to disagree that it's a certainty. (I'll also have to strongly disagree with how to make this monster less of a certainty). We, as the human race in relatively civilised countries, have been moving in one direction over hundreds of years and that's towards peace, shared values, empathy, care for the weakest, support for those who need it, free trade, equal rights, democracy, environmental improvements, sustainability, and other quite nifty things. This has been very hard won as we all appreciate at this most poignant of moments as we commemorate the ending of the 'Great' War, one which was started by a silly little beggar called Princip getting a lucky shot at an Archduke who took a silly wrong turning, and the subsequent escalation of hostilities which culminated in approaching 20 million deaths due to nothing less than false pride. And don't get me started on Hitler... Are you unaware of the 'Long Peace'? Are you unaware of what binds countries to work closely together so that the threat of conflict now is virtually incontemplatabubble? You fear that monster, and so do I. I think our decisions now must therefore come down to what is going to make it less likely? My take - backed by history and social & political science ('The Better Angels of our Nature', for example) - is that a unified Europe with GB on board to keep help keep extremism in check is a far better option than a fractured EU where each country has to go it alone, forge their own deals, fight over trade, fall back on Nationalism, build up their individual armies for security. You know - exactly what Trump is doing right now. Bob, please consider this for a second - this is what many Leavers on this forum have said they wanted; GB leaves 'hard' which will also damage the EU to the extent that it hopefully ultimately breaks up - that is what some of the u-s on here have said they want. Say they get their wish - now imagine a non-EU Germany with a nationalist, right-wing Chancellor in charge. A German Trump as it were. Will you sleep more comfortably at night? Compare that with the current unified - and expanding - EU where the combined populations, united under democracy and shared values, can put a check on any such miscreant 'monster'. (Some political commentators in Greece are fearful of GB leaving as that will have the immediate effect of increasing Germany's power and control). Seems we want the same thing, Bob - but have polar-opposite ideas on how to achieve it. That's so weird, huh?!
May should be hung as a traitor...along with all politicians who are not actively carrying out the will of the people via referendum. I would be happy to put the rope around her scraggy neck myself. RS
I have never ever reported a single post on here from a SF participant (the odd obvious troll, yes), but I nearly did for that one. On balance I think I'd rather it stay on here to remind us of the cesspit mind of some folk.
This is all very well and if only that was what the EU is about it would be wonderful. But you know as well as all of us that its not what the EU is about.
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