Statues

Discussion in 'Just Talk' started by DIY0001, Jun 11, 2020.

  1. Harry Stottle

    Harry Stottle Screwfix Select

    Slave trading is awful, but you can't apply 21st century standards to what happened long ago, all that can be done now for those unfortunate millions is to know what went on and make sure it does not happen again. it is important that the horrors are recorded in history. You can't do that by removing statues, if anything it helps to erase history.
     
  2. Bobby Dazzler

    Bobby Dazzler Active Member

    But you can rewrite the plaques on the statues, recognising the shocking truth of their awful deeds, instead of leaving the plaques of yesteryear describing these people as "most wise and virtuous".
     
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  3. Bobby Dazzler

    Bobby Dazzler Active Member

    They don't erect monuments to those employed by slave traders. They don't describe them as "most wise and virtuous".
    Funnily enough, those Africans employed by the slave traders are thought of as exactly what they are, heinous individuals. Weird then, that their white employers are described as "most wise and virtuous".
     
    fff likes this.
  4. Astramax

    Astramax Super Member

    Someone has to front the money!...........which they were happy to take.......get a life and wise up.
     
  5. [QUOTE=".Funnily enough, those Africans employed by the slave traders are thought of as exactly what they are, heinous individuals. Weird then, that their white employers are described as "most wise and virtuous".[/QUOTE]

    They where seen as wise and virtuous at the time because at that time everyone was of the same mindset so no one judged their actions, we know better these days, what was once seen as a normal is now seen as a dark part of our history, those statues, regardless of how offensive they are, should be a reminder of the darker times, knocking them down is not the solution, that just tries to change history so it becomes more palatable, we as a race keep repeating the same mistakes instead of learning from our history, however distasteful part of it are.
     
  6. Bobby Dazzler

    Bobby Dazzler Active Member

    They where seen as wise and virtuous at the time because at that time everyone was of the same mindset so no one judged their actions, we know better these days, what was once seen as a normal is now seen as a dark part of our history, those statues, regardless of how offensive they are, should be a reminder of the darker times, knocking them down is not the solution, that just tries to change history so it becomes more palatable, we as a race keep repeating the same mistakes instead of learning from our history, however distasteful part of it are.[/QUOTE]
    Sure. But now we are of a different mindset, isn't it about time we brought the history, especially that of the statues, up-to-date?
    The first statue to topple, that of Colston in Bristol, was under review for something like 10 years. It wasn't that they couldn't decide whether to change the plaque, the delay was caused by disagreements on the new wording.

    We should bring the history of all the other relevant statues up-to-date, with today's morals and mindset.
    As Tuxornot said, only by recognising history, warts and all, can we learn from it. Not to bring them up-to-date means that we are not recognising the darker side of history as well as the not so darker sides.
     
  7. Bobby Dazzler

    Bobby Dazzler Active Member

    By your reasoning, the low-life criminals should be treated for the criminals that they are.
    Meanwhile the masterminds behind their criminality should be lauded for their industriousness.
     
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  8. DIY0001

    DIY0001 Active Member

    The “shocking truth” is that we are no more virtuous than any other great civilisation that came before us: Romans, Greeks, Babylonians, Egyptians, Aztecs, Mayans etc. etc. etc. The “shocking truth” is that all those ancient civilisations were built on slavery. Our civilisation just reached a level of technical innovation that slaves were no longer the necessary evil that they had been. We don’t “know better”, just have different values. In fact, the Industrial Revolution, based on fossil fuels such as coal, made us so rich that the state could buy every slave from their owner at market rate and free them. Until then, owning slaves was very respectable indeed and the likes of Colston were judged on their philanthropic “wise and virtuous” deeds. It is hypocritical in the extreme to judge these people by the standards that cheap and plentiful energy allows you to enjoy today. Quite simply, nobody living today has that right.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2020
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  9. WillyEckerslike

    WillyEckerslike Screwfix Select

    You're applying different rules from different times. Slave traders nowadays are arrested, charged and imprisoned for their crimes - unlike vandals.
     
  10. Bobby Dazzler

    Bobby Dazzler Active Member

    The damage caused by the slave trade is very present in today's society. Thinking about black people specifically, in regards to the "most wise and virtuous" slave traders, black people are still suffering the remnants of discrimination and prejudice in current times.

    Is it right and proper that 3% of the UK population have to suffer the inequities of having their descendants shattered lives caused by "the most wise and virtuous" white men? They are monsters by today's standards and that should be recognised.
    The prejudice and discrimination also affects all BAME people. Prejudice and discrimination that was invented to justify slavery, an activity that is now illegal, yet is still lauded.

    If these "most wise and virtuous" men were alive today, they could/would be prosecuted for their illegal activity. The evidence abounds.
    The United Kingdom is almost unique in the world in that it has no statute of limitations for any criminal offence tried above magistrate level.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limitation_periods_in_the_United_Kingdom
     
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  11. Jord86

    Jord86 Screwfix Select


    Are you advocating the 'protesters' toppling of statues then? Would there be the same furore if the statues depicted black slave traders and not white slave traders?

    As others have stated, what should be recognised is how the modern world exists off the back of slavery, from all types of colour. What about coal miners as an example, who were down the pits 14-16 hours a day, six days a week, paid an absolute pittance, no sick pay, they were slaves in all but name but no one feels that they would be a fair example to use being as they were predominantly white, it doesn't draw the headlines as much does it? Same goes for factory workers, dock workers, quarry workers, indeed, just 'workers'. Let's knock half of Bristol down, raze all of London, Liverpool can go as well, erase the East India Company from all literature, bulldoze Hadrians Wall, pretend Industrialization never happened because it most definitely would not have happened without the slave trade, and rewrite the history books from a black British man's perspective in today's era.

    Done deeds cannot be undone, but they can be learned from and recorded from, not used as a demand for meaningless irrelevant apologies, media exposure for mindless hypocritical celebrities and a few days out marching and 'protesting' for a significant number of jobless hypocritical troublemakers, whatever the colour of their skin.

    The righteousness portrayed by the protest group is absolutely ludicrous, being as the majority of their members acted like common thugs, vandals and criminals, but all in the name of opposing racism, against a ' most wise and virtuous' statue? Is that "right and proper?"

    No, I don't think so.
     
  12. Bobby Dazzler

    Bobby Dazzler Active Member

    No I'm not advocating the toppling of statues. But it probably wouldn't have happened if the owners of the statue had done what they agreed to do, i.e. replace the plaque with something more relevant and truthful.
    I don't advocate the toppling of statues, but I can fully understand the frustration with the authorities doing as little as possible.

    They were not slaves. They were not captured and transported thousands of miles in horrendous and degrading conditions, some of them dying, others thrown overboard. They were not forced to work for no pay. They were not flogged for very little excuse. They were not someone's property to dispose of as they thought fit. They were not hunted and hung from trees for entertainment. Their houses and businesses were not destroyed.

    If you're going to resort to absurd arguments, it demonstrates the fallibility of your theory.

    It is precisely that "media exposure for mindless hypocritical celebrities and a few days out marching and 'protesting' for a significant number of jobless hypocritical troublemakers" that will bring about change that has been too slow to correct the social inequalities in existence.

    The righteousness portrayed by supposed 'statue defenders' defending the wrong statues, and peeing on the memorials is absolutely ludicrous, being as the majority acted like common thugs, vandals and criminals, all in the name of defending history according to the white majority. Is that right and proper?
    No I don't think so.
     
    fff likes this.
  13. You have stopped taking your medication again bobby, ask your Nurse or Doctor to remedy this asap before you get any worse.
     
  14. Muzungu

    Muzungu Screwfix Select

    It is worth remembering that the vast majority of slaves in the transatlantic trade were sold at the coast to Europeans, having been captured inland, by African slave traders or by those who today would be considered "black". We don't hear much of these gentleman as there was little written history of the area for obvious reasons (no reading or writing in the indigenous population).

    In East and Central Africa the main traders in the hinterlands were Arabs, again today considered part of the "BAME" demographic until the trade was abolished by the Europeans, the British taking a major and active roll in the abolishing of the trade internationally after being one of the major coastal traders in West Africa although less of a player in East and Central Africa. It may be worth looking, for example, at the history of the West African Squadron.

    I have always taken an interest in African history due to growing up, and going to school, in Nigeria and various countries in Central Africa where my parents were aid workers.
     
  15. fff

    fff Active Member

    Bobby you are so right and so eloquent. It is very disappointing to see that others here- who are probably educated, intelligent and generally helpful people, cannot countenance another point of view. I won’t say more because it’s going to be a mistake to discuss socialised racism and politics on a site that I like to use for building advice. We have such a long way to go and it’s calm rational responses such as yours that might bring about change.
     
    Bobby Dazzler likes this.
  16. DIY0001

    DIY0001 Active Member

    If you calmed down a bit you might have seen that Jord86 said they were slaves “in all but name”.

    Nevertheless, under today’s definitions, it would certainly be classed as modern slavery and human exploitation.

    Their homes were often owned by the colliery, to whom they paid rent, making them indebted to their “employer”. Fatal mine accidents were regular, terminal illness due to working conditions commonplace and, if the coal seam dried, their homes certainly were routinely destroyed. “Slaves in all but name.”

    Instead of toppling statues there are plenty of real modern slavery establishments that could, and should, be confronted. Of course, that would take a bit more effort than simply jumping on the bandwagon yelling an excuse that “black lives matter”. All lives matter, but you would rather bemoan yesterday’s norms than fix today’s problems.
    [/QUOTE]
     
  17. Jord86

    Jord86 Screwfix Select


    Now, I will agree with you about the supposed 'statue defenders' being largely a disgrace and most likely an excuse for the Combat 18 idiots to have a couple of drink fuelled days out, and the idiot who piddled next to the memorial was a prime example of blind ignorance (not subjected hate), but we'll differ on a lot of the rest.

    I wrote "slaves in all but name", Bobby, which you selectively omitted to quote that part.

    Do you think that the majority of protesters who 'statue toppled' in the first instance actually knew the history behind what they were so steadfast against and harboured resentment for years and campaigned before the death of George Floyd to have the plaques changed? I don't think a lot of them did personally, I would say it was mob mentality jumping on the bandwagon of an originally fair point of protest that has now morphed into another media fuelled battle between black or white, which has done nothing actually productive just fuelled the flames further.

    My 'absurd argument' in your opinion is more a question of where do you stop and how far do you go if vandalism, destruction and disruption in the name of change is the chosen option, a couple of statues that have been erected for decades aren't exactly designed symbols of hate that are comparable to say, a swastika for example.

    I have read a fair few of your posts on another forum, Bobby, where you debate the same and similar topics to the point which appears that rather than sustain a reasoned argument (as you do start off with fair reasoning) and accept that people with a difference of opinion does not make them racist you end up appearing like you have an agenda to continually post the same selective accusatory diatribes and insinuations to others who don't share an identical viewpoint.
     
  18. Bobby Dazzler

    Bobby Dazzler Active Member

    [QUOTE="Jord86, post: 1826943, member: 160764"
    I wrote "slaves in all but name", Bobby, which you selectively omitted to quote that part.
    [/QUOTE]
    I'm not sure where you get your definition of slavery from, but The UN has one, which I'm happy to adopt:
    Slavery Today
    There are an estimated 21 million to 45 million people trapped in some form of slavery today. It’s sometimes called “Modern-Day Slavery” and sometimes “Human Trafficking." At all times it is slavery at its core.

    What is the definition of human trafficking?
    The United Nations defines human trafficking as the recruitment, transportation, transfer, harboring, or receipt of persons by improper means (such as force, abduction, fraud, or coercion) for an improper purpose including forced labor or sexual exploitation. ...
    http://www.endslaverynow.org/learn/slavery-today
     
  19. Bobby Dazzler

    Bobby Dazzler Active Member

    Whataboutery, and the best way of preventing any re-occurrence is to recognise all the proponents of the slave trade, that includes the white employers of those Africans.
    The descendants of their captives are not experiencing continued prejudice and discrimination from the Africans that were employed to capture them.
    That is not so in, especially in UK and US, the descendants of those captured slaves are still experiencing prejudice, discrimination and structural inequality.

    We can do something about that in UK, if we have the will, but sadly, with a racist PM in UK, and a racist president in US, the political will is evidently absent.
     
  20. Why has prince andrew not been charged then?, he had sex with a girl trafficked for the purpose of him having sex with her.
     

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