Stud Wall Fixing

Discussion in 'Carpenters' Talk' started by Gummo, Oct 13, 2013.

  1. Sean_ork

    Sean_ork Screwfix Select

    I'll ask again Tom - if the screws are holding up the cabinet, what purpose does the no nails glue serve ?

    the product might well be fine for adhering the products mentioned within it's listing and specification, but using it to botch the hanging of a cabinet to a plasterboarded wall is laughable
  2. tom.plum

    tom.plum Screwfix Select

    Like I said before, a pen pusher would't know, but i give you somethink to google, It will keep you busy for a while and you'll learn something from it,

    the screws or nails of fixings are not holding up the cabinet, stictation is,thats like friction without the motion, in a vehicle friction brings it ot a halt using the brakes,when its stopped sticktation holds it there, apply that to a cupboard and you'll get the drft,
  3. Sean_ork

    Sean_ork Screwfix Select

    thanks for that Tom

    here's me thinking screws fixings exerted a clamping force

    perhaps the folks who make Velco should start making wallpaper
  4. tom.plum

    tom.plum Screwfix Select

    happy to be of service sean anytime, :)
  5. joinerjohn1

    joinerjohn1 Screwfix Select

    Hmm  I'm not sure that the shear strength of plasterboard paper is something that most people wouldn't even want to know. As for the bit about no one using nails to fix plasterboard these days, I can tell that you don't work on site, these days ( if you ever have)  Younger brother is a plasterer and he'll use whatever he's supplied with to fix plasterboard to studwork (and on most sites that means the cheapest fixings, usually a large bag of plasterboard nails) ;)
  6. Sean_ork

    Sean_ork Screwfix Select

    if you were daft enough to glue an item of any weight to plasterboard, and had any interest in it not falling off, you'd want to know if the mating surfaces where robust enough to support the item - having said that if you really were daft enough to glue anything of weight to such a weak substrate I doubt the possibility of it not being strong enough would cross your mind

    collated PB screws, via a gun is the most cost effective method of mass fixing PB - perhaps I should revise my previous comment to say, no one with any interest in how their works looks after 3 months would use nails on PB

    using nails to fix PB is rough
  7. tom.plum

    tom.plum Screwfix Select

    nails are the time honoured way of fixing boards, it only changed to screws ( which incidently are knocked in not screwed) when the screwgun was invented in the late 90,s early 2000, I took a while to catch on because of the initial cost of the gun and the screws mounted in magazines, they quickly became popular because of the QUICKNESS of operation, not the quality, in fact in a lot of cases the screws are drove in too far and are not actally doing anything,

    googles a great tool but there's no substitute for actually being on site and seeing for yourself the mess all the new building methods are causing, just ask anyone with a home built since the mellenium,
  8. Sean_ork

    Sean_ork Screwfix Select

    I rest my case ......
  9. tom.plum

    tom.plum Screwfix Select

    aw, :'(
  10. was dunc before

    was dunc before New Member

    For this I would cut out some of the plasterboard behind the position where the cabinets are to be fitted. and expose the studs, to see what and where I can fix to. now it may be that a piece of timber can pack out the stud and be screwed to. or it might need a whole noggin across the studs. but if your cabinets are going to take any weight, they need to fix to something solid. this i would tell the customer. if they didn't like that i wouldn't do the job. you don't know what is behind the plasterboard and in a bathroom you might screw into a waterpipe. reinstate a section of plasterboard or mesh and plaster, and a reasonable re-decoration can be effected to conceal the evidence of the work.
    Gummo likes this.
  11. WDB thats exactly what I did when I fitted my kitchen at home. The stuff my mrs puts in the cupboads I had to make sure they wouldn't pull away from the wall.
    Gummo likes this.
  12. Gummo

    Gummo Active Member

    Thanks, comrades for your advice.  I've gone for heavyweight  hollow-wall anchors - none of the sides are remotely close to a stud.

    For peace of mind, I'm going to fit a large angle bracket where the roof of each unit hits a stud running up middle-ish of both.
  13. Jitender

    Jitender Screwfix Select

  14. joinerjohn1

    joinerjohn1 Screwfix Select

    As was dunc before said, if you marked the position of the cabinet on the wall, you could theoretically, cut some plasterboard out (that would be hidden by the cabinet) and insert a noggin at the height you need for the fixings. Did something like this once on a kitchen fit, years ago before the introduction of those hanging rails for kitchen cabinets. Took a bit of time and made a bit of a mess, but once the cabinets were up, you couldn't see where the plasterboard had been taken out. (wonder now if they ever changed the kitchen layout, or sold the house and the new owner decided to change it) ;)
    Gummo likes this.
  15. Gummo

    Gummo Active Member

    I'm increasingly considering that as an alternative, John.  It would work for the right side of the wall cabinet as there's a stud about 5mm away. I can run a noggin from that to the stud that runs up the middle if the cabinet.

    I'll still have to use the hollow fixing on the left side as the next stud is too far beyond.
  16. Gummo, are the two cabinets going to be fitted separately or touching side-by-side?

    I don't 'understand' the second unit - are these legs at t'bottom for it to stand on? In which case p'board fittings (see below) will be fine just to stop it toppling forwards!

    Plasterboard is strong stuff - until the paper layer tears or the plaster itself starts to crumble. So any fixing you use needs to be a tight non-moving type. And that rules out most fixings as using the cabinet will cause vibrations and small movements which will loosen the majority of fixings over time. Once it starts to move, it's only a matter of time...

    My personal favs are these type, then - hollow wall fixings. Once fitted properly, they are snug and movement-free. To fit them properly, you need to drill the correct-sized hole (or fractionally smaller...) with a sharp bit and pushing slowly. You want a clean, crisp hole with no paper-bursts either side. You then tighten the fixing making sure it doesn't turn and tear the paper. Once fitted, you are free to remove the bolt whenever you want.

    Forget 'spring toggle' types. Hellish things. The type suggested by Sean are 'ok', but rely too much - imo - on there being no subsequent movement (once they move a teeny bit, their time is limited.)

    However, the best thing - as you now suspect - is to:

    Mark an outline on the wall where the cabinets are to go - that's the area you can muck around in. Also mark (and even drill a guide hole) for where the two existing cabinet fixings will go.

    If you are only 5mm (or even 50mm) away from a stud, then cut away (using a Stanley knife, scoring lightly over and over again to get a crisp clean cut) as near the stud as possible but ideally within your 'footprint' - so you won't see this cut-repair afterwards. You can make the edge of this cut a good 15mm or more away from the stud edge - it doesn't have to be tight against the stud.

    Make that hole a good 100mm square to give room to work. Drop in a pre-drilled block of wood (an 80mm high piece of 2x2 or 3x2 for example - whichever is wide enough to reach your fixing from the stud) and place it tight against the stud. You will, of course, have given it a liberal coating of PVA first - so's it sticks against the stud and also the p'board 'lip'.

    Screw this block to the stud via your pre-drilled hole (which you now realise should have been made at a slight angle...) whilst keeping the block as tight against the back of the p'board lip as you can.

    The cut-away piece of board is now PVA'd and screwed back into place on to your block. (First, clean up all the cut edges of the p'board, adding a slight bevel to each so that, when the piece is repleced, you have a 'wedge' cut all around that will take filler nicely. Before filling, PVA all the cut plaster edges.

    Now, before you fit that block of wood, you get another similar block (tho' it could be a flatter piece, say 12mm + thick ply or whatever you have, tho' the 2x2 or 3x2 is also fine...) and you coat one side with PVA and stick yer arm in through the hole you made and place that block over the other cabinet-fixing hole you've drilled and press it well tight against the back of the p'board and hold it there while you screw through the front of the p'board into it making sure that this screw is not in the way of the future cabinet-fixing screw which is why you drilled that earlier guide hole anyways. Once this is in place, it'll be super-strong - you would need to rip off a huge hunk of p'board before it would fail. And that won't happen.

    Then you fit your 'stud' block. And replace the p'board 'piece'. And fill it. And sand. And paint.

    Your cabinet will now never fall off ever ever ever.
    Gummo likes this.
  17. If you don't have any accessible studs to screw to, then make that large hole in the middle of the cabinet area, get a length of timber (3x1, 2x1 whatever you have...) and cut it to a length that spans both cabinet fixings and goes a further couple of inches beyond. Coat one side with PVA, and thread it through the hole (vertically if you need to) and position it evenly so's each end goes comfortably over the cabinet fixing postions you require. Pull it snugly against the back of the p'board and shoogle it so's the PVA is well bonded. Either hold it in place, or tie string around it amnd pull it tight or put a couple of small sacrews through the p'board into the timber to hold it in place - yeah, that last way is best...

    Once set, replace cut-out piece, fill and whatsit.

    As strong as a strong thing.
    Gummo likes this.
  18. Gummo

    Gummo Active Member

    Many thanks for all your fine advice and lengthy extent you went to. I bit the bullet and made the hole - it's funny how better you feel when the decision's made. I was able then to fit noggins behind the fixing points. Each noggin was fashioned from lengths of 2"x2" screwed right-angle at each end to a shorter length, making this shape [.

    The shorter parts were then screwed against the studs.

    Being knackered, I'm fixing the cabinet later but I'm puzzled as to why Ikea deemed such a large cabinet to require fixing at the two upper corners only.

    I'm hoping they're right.
    Aardvark Plasterworks likes this.
  19. If it were my kitchen/bathroom, I would have had the forethought of screwing noggins at the correct height to accept a standard wall cabinet. However as I must be anal and you don't have my walls, initially one could find an upright timber (stud) in the wall and place a batten in the back of the cabinet, across that point, to take the load and screw it on. The tidy way, though is to screw a noggin in the wall at the selected place/s. Cut a rectangle slightly larger than the smallest side of the timber you are fitting (i.e. if its 100 x 50, then 50 and a bit) neatly out of the plasterboard from stud to stud and remove - Screw in the timber/s so that the longest side is facing you - refix (screw) the plasterboard cut-out AND the surrounding board - fill as required - screw the cupboard to the wall through the plasterboard with decent screws. You could then free-climb across your bathroom if you like as the cupboard will be perfectly fixed. A job done well etc. ...
    Gummo likes this.
  20. Nice job, Gummo.

    Screwing your noggin (ooh-er, missus) to both studs is certainly a secure job. You must have cut a sizeable hole in the p'board, tho?!

    Chust having a noggin PVA'd to the back of the p'board would have been strong enough if that had meant less chopping about. If you have a screw going through the p'board into a noggin glued to the back, there's no way you'd pull that off the wall. Well, it could be done, but to burst the p'baord right off would take some doing.

    Anyways, I bet you're pleased it's been done properly :).

    Yes, it might seem strange that there's only 2 fixings, but they are to the unit sides and that holds just about everything.

    It won't come off...
    Gummo likes this.

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