Taking the Heat out of an argument about N.I.

Discussion in 'Just Talk' started by Allsorts, Sep 23, 2018.

  1. Allsorts

    Allsorts Super Member

    I asked you on another thread, Heat, whether you would try something - "I wonder, would you dare to try a Google for something like "will Brexit affect Irish unity?" or anything of that ilk and then - this is particularly important - do a quick search on each of the main sources in the returned results to determine each one's level of bias. Of course I'm suggesting you then choose the most reliable and impartial sources, and not one from whatever your normal daily read happens to be.

    I used 'Allsides' to check each source, after having checked 'Allsides' itself in the same way. I think I managed to find balanced sites."

    I haven't heard back, so I've done it for you.

    I used Allsides' to try and verify the impartiality of each site, and another 'impartialometer' site to verify 'Allsides'.

    I still cannot claim that any site is 100% impartial - who can? - but I think I've narrowed it down a wee bit. What I am definitely not doing is picking and choosing to suit myself.

    Lots of views. By far the most comprehensive report is here:


    Brexit threatens Northern Irish peace, academic study finds.

    Brexit will threaten the peace process and weaken protections for human rights and equality. Many of these matters have simply been neglected in the discussions thus far and must change.

    Brexit will threaten peace in NI, disrupt cross-border cooperation and create potentially lethal divides between British and Irish people in Northern Ireland, an 18-month study by academics has found.

    In the most comprehensive study of the impact leaving the EU will have on the region, researchers also found that Brexit was seen as “manna from heaven” for Sinn Féin as it “mainstreamed” the topic of unification.
  2. WillyEckerslike

    WillyEckerslike Screwfix Select

    I seriously doubt that you (or I for that matter) are remotely qualified to comment on the sectarian issues that have plagued this region for longer than you or I have been alive.

    I avoid Brexit discussions for the simple reason that polarised views are repeated ad infinitum and there's nothing that can be done by posters on this forum to change the result of the referendum - if indeed we want to.

    People have been killed by passionate supporters of their cause and to reignite this because of something as trivial as Brexit is dangerous in my opinion. Leave it to the politicians DA.
  3. Isitreally

    Isitreally Super Member

    I did like this post for what it is.

    But there's fun to be had mocking Remoaners. :D:D:D
  4. Allsorts

    Allsorts Super Member

    Totally appreciate your sentiments, Willy.

    I disagree, however.

    The reason we are in this mess - of which one side is in complete denial on it's almost certain consequences - is because (a) the electorate is not very well informed and is frankly more ignorant that it accepts or realises, and (b) we did leave it to the politicians.

    Yes, polarised views are being repeated ad infinitum, but they are not going around in circles; one side is being challenged with facts and they respond with dismissals and glibbisms.

    Thankfully this has yet to happen on this thread, apart from post #3 :)

    Willy, the day that virtually-certain facts - the best information carried out by the most dedicated and experience and qualified researchers - is not considered a legitimate contribution to these discussions is the day when pointless mud-slinging is all that's left.

    Until then, I'm happy to provide a wee bit of meat.

    IIR, have you anything constructive to add to this thread?
  5. Isitreally

    Isitreally Super Member

    You're fast becoming a bully, almost forcing people to argue with you.
    You take great pleasure in trying to belittle people on a public forum by being the upper hand.
    You contradict every possible reason people have for believing what they belive.
    In your sad world only you are right.
  6. Isitreally

    Isitreally Super Member

  7. Allsorts

    Allsorts Super Member

    Out of order, IIR. And a pathetic attempt at diversion.

    Only one side gets slung off here for harassment.

    No-one need reply (and I'd rather you didn't if that's your sole contribution).

    Heat has a provably one-side slant on the NI issue. He has maintained lots to try and suggest Protestant/Loyalist suppression, with a complete lack of impartiality. He also doesn't accept the almost certain counter-productive effect of HIS Brexit vote. He simply denies it.

    So, he is welcome to some detailed impartial research.

    Again, what's your contribution, IIR?
  8. fillyboy

    fillyboy Screwfix Select

  9. Allsorts

    Allsorts Super Member

    Not as funny as the Monty Python 'Harassment' sketch.

    Or as pleasant as the resulting week of peace.
  10. Heat

    Heat Screwfix Select

    Hmmm, - clever title to this thread with a double meaning, but you can’t take my viewpoint (or those with a similar view, tradition, religion, or nationality) out of the argument.
    In fact I believe it is long past the time when the British viewpoint and the negative treatment of the British (Brexit or not) should have been heard.

    The comments from Allsorts of - “one sided slant” and “complete lack of impartiality”
    are a bit silly.
    To begin with - it is impossible to be completely impartial to most, (but not all) subjects as we all have some knowledge (or think we have) of various topics.
    Then there is the subjects to which a person will have more in-depth knowledge, ideally on the ground knowledge which may indeed mean they will not give an impartial viewpoint, but rather an accurate account of how THEY see the reality.

    True, that could be largely total one sided nonsense, or selective of the facts, or be completely accurate accounts of how they see it, depending on the decency and/or how blinkered the person is.
    But some educated twit(s) looking from outside at two sides of any issue, be it about Brexit or NI, may also not be impartial and most definitely lack some understanding and knowledge.
    Danger imo of researchers unfairly taking those that are more vocal and vigorous into the equation and coming up with a bias slant to the report.
    Let us be honest about who these researchers are, their probable bias and very often a left wing slant.
    A research document imo wouldn’t be very exciting unless it predicts doom and gloom, would it?

    My comments about suppression, discrimination in NI and Ireland (past and present) of British people is just my observation and experience and should be put into the thoughts of those who have never realised the extent of that. Just so we begin to have a balanced view of how it really is.

    As to Brexit on the peace in NI, I see no reason why this spin is coming out about a threat to peace, other than something to use from anti Brexit folk.
    We cannot live our lives afraid to make decisions that won’t exactly comply with what Gerry Adams wants.
    A report with some rearchers from NI does not mean it will be entirely accurate or without a bias.

    As to “The Good Friday Agreement” mentioned in the report.
    It has gone long ago, although still referred to as if fully functioning.
    Pointless talking about it as Brexit couldn’t make it worse, or better.
    longboat and fillyboy like this.
  11. fillyboy

    fillyboy Screwfix Select

    Yes it is.
  12. Allsorts

    Allsorts Super Member

    Longsie and Filly 'liked' that post because you made a big reply. They had to - it's in their gut to do so.

    When you've cleared away the chaff, Heat, all you've done with that reply is try and blow some fog and mist over the issue, to try and suggest 'no-one knows', and - by implication - that your viewpoint somehow has some extra legitimacy.

    It doesn't. It's still only your utterly biased viewpoint. Just more 'stuff'.

    That is why - as an educated outsider (thank you) - I have sought out for you what I understand is the single most comprehensive and unbiased report of its type. The findings confirm that of other impartial sites.

    I have avoided non-impartial sites and news sources because it would silly to go there, wouldn't it?

    So, Heat - yawn boring yawn - tell us that Brexit does not increase the chances and speediness of Irish reunification. Ergo, tell us that you have not shot yourself in the foot.

    Heat: "Let us be honest about who these researchers are, their probable bias and very often a left wing slant." Yes, Heat, let's be honest. Stick your 'probable bias' and 'left wing slant' where the sun don't shine (that's under a rock, in case you take personal offence) and do as I have done; honestly sought out impartial and expert sites.
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2018
  13. Allsorts

    Allsorts Super Member

    No 'likes'? I suspect even your sidekicks were glad of the break.
  14. longboat

    longboat Screwfix Select

  15. Heat

    Heat Screwfix Select

    I made a big reply to what was a big post of yours.

    No one really does know exactly what twists and turns will happen in the future, despite the ‘clever’ heads doing investigations and predictions of what will happen.
    I have no doubt that some reports are largely non bias.

    Brexit is happening, so I see no point in speculation.

    I honestly hope cool heads return and we work together.
    The fact that there is no government working in NI at present is an obstacle to progress and makes the Brexit less important there.

    I would vote for Brexit again, if I could. It was the only chance in a lifetime to have a real say on the EU.
    We should not have to change our vote preference because others will threaten us.
    Jord86, longboat and fillyboy like this.
  16. Isitreally

    Isitreally Super Member

    Need a bigger hammer and Heat like this.
  17. Allsorts

    Allsorts Super Member

    Bless, Longsie, you put a lot of effort in to that. I suspect Filly 'liked' it before he even read it.
  18. Allsorts

    Allsorts Super Member

    "No-one really knows". What a get out.

    I'm asking you to use your accumulated knowledge and critical faculties based on the best impartial information available to you to answer my little question - has the Brexit vote made the situation betwixt NI/UK and the Republic more tense or not? Is it going to smooth the way forward based on the GFA? Will it make reunification more or less likely?

    You cannot bring yourself to say anything other than "No-one knows".

    What a pitiful cop out.

    And OF COURSE you'd say you'd vote the same way again! As would every u-s on here. The reason for that is as simple as their egos are fragile.

    It will matter not a jot what happens over the next 6 months, just how obvious the damage to our country could be - you will all vote the same way.

    Thankfully, not everyone in this country is the same as you lot. Or are obligingly dying off.

    And you finish with the current Leave special, the fabricated 'threat' from the EU. What you call a threat is just the EU saying "You made this mess, you need to come to your senses" and "You expect us to try and pull you out of this act of self-harm?!"

    I don't know if you truly believe what you are saying, Heat, or if you are just trying to kid yourself and others. I don't know which is the most depressing scenario.

    I think this thread has served its purpose. Typically I've had to do most of the work for you.
  19. Allsorts

    Allsorts Super Member

  20. longboat

    longboat Screwfix Select

    SFP... DA demands a 'dislike' button.
    Can he have one?
    He wants to excel at something.
    Please make his dreams a reality.

    The man does get very jealous, you know!
    Heat likes this.

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