tiling with spacers or without

Discussion in 'Tilers' Talk' started by nearnwales, Dec 15, 2005.

  1. nearnwales

    nearnwales Member

    Hi all

    I've been skimming this house for a local builder , and i've been asked to tile the bathroom not a problem i said , but I had a look at the tiles and it's those large tiles with small squares meant to look like a mosaic style.

    When I took a close look at them the edges of them they seem to but up to one another no spacers but am not sure. I've seen the lads in work put spacers in them but when you step back and look at them you can see the individual tiles
     
  2. devil's advocate

    devil's advocate New Member

    Hi nearnwales.

    I'd have thought that whatever gives you exactly the same gap between the whole tiles that's between individual mosaics. I guess this should decide if they need spacers?

    Bear in mind that there will be real grout between the whole tiles, whereas only 'pretend' grout between the mosaics - is this what's making the individual tiles stand out?
     
  3. Chocdrop4767

    Chocdrop4767 New Member

    nearnwales

    Do they look a bit like this:

    http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a259/allyourbitz/splashback/Picture023.jpg

    these are 400x250mm ceramics. If so I'm just about to fit these on a splashback, and the recommended spacing is 3mm and probably wise to stick to that as there must be a reason for them stating that. If using tub gear, then this space is needed for the evaporation of the water from the adhesive. I had a look at a wall of these and with a 3mm space, it didn't look too bad.
     
  4. Harry the tiler

    Harry the tiler New Member

    ok you will need to butt them up without spaces, when you grout them you must grout the whole tile not just the joints, what i mean is the grout should go between the little mosiac joints as well, it gives the effect or real mosiac, ive done these tiles many many times..

    H
     
  5. Chocdrop4767

    Chocdrop4767 New Member

    Harry

    on the tiles I'm using, the dip in between the little mosaics isn't deep enough, so I cant see how the grout will hold, especially so when I wipe off with a sponge......it must be the same for the tiles nearnwales talks of
     
  6. bathstyle

    bathstyle Active Member

    I've done a few of these tiles in the past and I've had to put in spacers because the edge of the mosaic doesn't have a grout line at all.

    As DA says, check your tile to see what the edge is like, you may have to use the little rubi wedges if it's a tiny grout line you need.

    Also you will need to grout the whole tile, grouting the spaces isn't right. If the grout is wiping off the tile whilst sponging then the grout hasn't been left for long enough.
     
  7. chocdrop

    chocdrop New Member

    bstyle

    How long should it be left for?
     
  8. Boff

    Boff New Member

    I've used them before and didn't use spacers as the tile already had half a grout line round the edge - I left a small gap to aid the adhesive to go off and they've been on ages and the customer loved it - instructions were in Turkish or something so no idea what the manufacturer suggested. As above you need to make sure you grout all the tile otherwise it looks bloody stupid :)
     
  9. nearnwales

    nearnwales Member

    there the one's chocdrop


    I know I have to grout the whole tile and not just around the edge.
     
  10. nearnwales

    nearnwales Member

    am all confused
     
  11. chocdrop

    chocdrop New Member

    mine definately say to allow for a 3mm spacer, but that then makes the grout line slightly wider that the fake ones.....I'm confused too!
     
  12. MJH

    MJH Member

    most Bal grouts recommend that it's left for 15 minutes before wiping off, when the grout is dry 'ish' to the touch. Full instructions are on the pack but give the Bal technical team a call for reassurance
     
  13. mj

    mj Guest

    Lay 2 tiles flat with the joints butted. Wipe some tile cement along the joint & then clean off with a sponge, this will give you an indication of the width of the finished grout. If it don't look right then increase the gap until it's correct. The gap between the tiles generally looks wider once the gout is applied, so don't be temted to go large with the joints.
     
  14. mj

    mj Guest

    A washboy is good for this type of tile as the float/sponge doesn't wash out all of the grout
     
  15. Mr. Handyandy

    Mr. Handyandy Screwfix Select

    Use the small spacers on edge just pegged in. This will give less than 2mm gap and filling in will look no different to the fake grout gap(which if you measure it might come out at 4mm).

    If you cover the whole tile with grout, then wipe some off, remember, the more you leave on, the wider the fake grout line will be.

    So don't do it.

    Use a terylene type cloth (white towel or flannel) to wipe out the excess from the fake lines before the usual sponge for the actual grout lines.(the towelling reaches into the lines better).

    Pain in the ***, those tiles.

    Oh, and I cut them with angle grinder(impossible to snap neatly)



    Mr. Handyandy - really
     
  16. You shouldn't butt joint tiles, it doesn't allow for any thermal expansion.

    It's one of the main resons for tile failures.

    Also if it's in a wet area the only way to reduce water permeation is to use a 2mm joint minimum.
     
  17. mj

    mj Guest

    mudster,
    I was only suggesting butting them on the flat to gauge the grout width. I know your point about grout failure, its a close second to shower tray/bath & wall joint failure.
    Fitting many Pseudo mosaic tiles with a 2mm joint width usually makes the finished joint look much bigger than the rest of the tile. Why dont tile manufactuers allow for this during production?
     
  18. Some do allow for this in production, some don't.

    The single biggest problem with tiling in the UK is what is accepted as correct substrate preparation. We have the lowest acceptable specs of most developed countries, we have no regulation on who or how most installations are undertaken and there is a general lack of education about correct installation.

    As a result, the materials we use are required to overcome the often unsuitable substrates we construct. Particularly modern constructions, which on most cases are not structurally sound enough to tile at all.

    Butt jointing of tiles can be done, there is actually a specialist process for this kind of installation, it's referred to as "Grind in Place" fitting.

    The only time I've ever come across any structure capable of this kind of fitting is commercial, and those all are required to incorporate expansion joints.

    The tile manufacturers produce tiles to commercial specification, unfortunately we don't build most of our houses to this specification, therefore we need to compromise, by fitting with a grout joint which will take up small amounts of structural movement and thermal expansion.
     
  19. tradesman

    tradesman New Member

    I know this is a late reply, but only just joined the site. All tiles are different. All manufacturers are different. Everything is different. What goes for 1 tile / manufacturer does not go for the other! I think there is no point in grouting the mosaic tile, only the joint. The grout won't stay on the tile! Correction it will stay on the tile but you cannot grout the tile if you follow me. Put your grout on the tile and just leave it there. Come back tomorrow, your tile is grouted! but looks a disaster.Treat the mosaic pattern as an ordinary tile and just tile the grout making sure to put plenty of grout into the joint.Give it half hour or so then sponge off. Let it dry for wa while and sponge again. Let it dry again and "polish" off the dust with a cloth
     
  20. chocdrop

    chocdrop New Member

    "Treat the mosaic pattern as an ordinary tile and just tile the grout making sure to put plenty of grout into the joint"

    don't you mean grout the tile not tile the grout?

    I guess you're saying, grout over the whole area (tiles and joints) and wipe off as normal.......
     

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