"Unsatisfactory" EICR for underrated MCB (20 Amp instead of 32 Amp)

Discussion in 'Electricians' Talk' started by Ardent, Aug 29, 2020.

  1. Ardent

    Ardent Member

    Hi all,
    I run a property maintenance company working with Estate agents in London.
    They've asked us to carry-out EICRs for them, so we've been working with a few electrical companies to carry these out on our behalf (we're not NICEIC/NAPIT accredited).

    Anyway, one of these guys went to a new (completed in mid 2016) flat and issued an Unsatisfactory EICR and observed one C3 (plastic consumer unit) and on C2 (under size rated MCB.) He explained that the C2 was because one MCB should be 32Amp, not the 20Amp that's installed. Is this enough to deem the installation unsatisfactory? I would have thought that having a 20Amp MCB would make the the installation more sensitive, and potentially trip more, but not more dangerous... If it makes any difference, this MCB was installed on the "Heating/FCU circuit".

    He's given us a quote to install a new one and retest for £240... As that was the only C2 found, wouldn't he just need to test that circuit? Does he need to retest the whole installation?

    Any thoughts would be welcome.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2020
  2. unphased

    unphased Screwfix Select

    The C2 for a lower rated mcb is ludicrous. Amateurs. You know more than he does. Question why he is being allowed to do EICRs and insist that the C2 is removed and SATISFACTORY awarded.
     
    Sparkielev, METRO MARK and seneca like this.
  3. Coloumb

    Coloumb Screwfix Select

    Find out who they are registered with and take it up with them. Absolute joke. Until this kind of thing is stamped out it's just going to run and run. It's a great shame as it really does nothing to address the safety of tenants that really have dodgy electrical installations, but then again that kind of LL is unlikely to really care either way.
     
    Sparkielev and METRO MARK like this.
  4. unphased

    unphased Screwfix Select

    Agreed, Ben. I am sick of seeing all this rubbish on EICRs. The biggest problem is letting inexperienced sparks loose on an EICR. I would say a minimum 5 years post qualification and 2391 MINIMUM to be allowed to do them. People are getting ripped off with all this nonsense. C2 codes issued without any justifications and unnecessary UNSATISFACTORY reports issued every day. I feel sorry for the recipients.
     
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  5. Ardent

    Ardent Member

    This is the breakdown of the circuits... As I mentioned, it's Circuit 4 that's the reason given for the 'C2' Screenshot 2020-08-30 at 01.40.17.png


    He also did another EICR for us and another property, earlier the same day, and identified Circuit 4 and 10 below, undersized/rated too:
    Is this nonsense too? I think I know the answer to this...
    Screenshot 2020-08-30 at 01.43.43.png
     
  6. unphased

    unphased Screwfix Select

    I would be highly suspicious of those test results. And, yes, you already know the answer.
     
  7. Bob Rathbone

    Bob Rathbone Screwfix Select

    Again I would repeat that the regulations do not require a metal CCU, they only insist that it will contain a fire inside the enclosure. Many good plastic CCU's will do this but recognizing them is difficult for the less experienced among us.
     
  8. Load of nonsense, he is trying it on to get some work.
    He has also put down results of the circuit being a ring, despite there being only one point on it.
    He also does not know the cpc sizes in 4mm, 6mm and 10mm twin and earth cable, the sizes he has noted are too large.
    Tell him you want a new eicr issued with the correct details printed on it and no ficticious cod 2's.
     
  9. Bazza

    Bazza Screwfix Select

    Circuit 4 shows a 10A MCB not a 20A. But as above, there’s no safety issue for an undersized MCB. Not even a C3.
    That circuit appears to be a single point for the FCU for the boiler. I would be surprised if it is even a ring!

    @Ardent any chance of a photo of the inside of the board?
     
  10. Sparkielev

    Sparkielev Screwfix Select

    Kitchen appliances are on 1.25 cable ?
     
  11. Lectrician

    Lectrician Screwfix Select

    The test results look good to me. Well produced and understood. A couple typo errors there I reckon. We don't know the loading of the heating - If it exceeds 20amp, I think he has justification. If it doesn't, then he shouldn't have coded it at all. There are other circuits that are rings on 20amp there, and he hasn't commented on those, so I reckon he must know the load is exceeding 20amp.

    Don't try ratting a guy out - Give him the benefit of the doubt. Ask him for clarification, not a forum. The paperwork looks good to me, a professional report, not the **** some people produce.

    He doesn't need to retest, just issue a completion cert for the one circuit, referencing the EICR report number and observation corrected.
     
  12. unphased

    unphased Screwfix Select

    Disagree. Those results are too perfect. Fabricated in my opinion. Ring circuits exactly the same values? Don't think so. I would have it done again by another spark and compare the two. He doesn't know the cpc sizes either. 4mm2 is 1.5 not 2.5. 10mm2 is 4 not 6. He has recorded 4mm2 size for a hob and oven too. Not convinced. You can always make a report look professional. It is very easy to do that. But small errors suggest he has fabricated the readings. Every insulation test is 800 Mohms. Highly suspect.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2020
  13. MGW

    MGW Screwfix Select

    I could see why in second sheet some one would question having three odd circuits without RCD protection when since using RCBO's on the rest it would seem easy fix, but that would be C3 not C2, There is no reason why lower than cable rating RCBO or MCB should ever generate even a C3, it is common for the supply to items like lights, smoke alarms and boilers to be under the size to which the cable is rated, in fact with lights since the ceiling rose is often rated at 5 amp, to have a over current protection matched to cable size could generate a C2.

    It simply make no sense what you have said, but the sheets shown don't show any failures only readings, it does seem strange to have conductors in parallel for the supply to a single FCU, I would myself question why, as it points to it at one time serving something else, but it is not a C2 as shown.

    We are seeing post after post with inspectors giving C2 to items which really should not be given C2, however C2 means potentially dangerous, and all 230 volt supplies are potentially dangerous, so it is hard to say any inspector is wrong, however the EICR was never designed as a legal document designed to show if rented property was fit to rent. It was simply to show owners the state of the installation so they were made aware of limitations, personally I don't think code 4 should have been removed.

    For a compliance certificate the electrician must be a member of a scheme and the scheme provider is suppose to visit some completed work to assess if the electrician is doing the job correctly, so in theory if an electrician was to suffer from alzheimer's disease this would be noted and his membership revoked. This was the big point made when the English Part P was reconsidered, the national statistics as to number of people who start to suffer with alzheimer's disease was higher than the number of electricians who had their membership revoked, pointing to the scheme providers not doing their job, however one would hope electricians who do suffer would give up practising without being forced, so it really did not add up.

    However I and 69, I have my level 3 qualifications in fact I have level 5, and it would be easy enough for me to get the insurance, I don't need to be a scheme member to do EICR's so armed with my C&G 2391 I could if I so wished do EICR's without any one checking if they are to standard or not, I agree when I took my C&G 2391 there was only around a 70% past rate, so one hopes that would weed out those without the knowledge, but it is clear from these forums many so called electricians are doing EICR's with out any real experience.

    I can list on one hand how many times I have been asked to provide copies of my certificates. I have been asked if I have passed the exams, but not to produce certificates, or copies of them. With a car MOT or a building energy rating there is a national system to log the results and one can verify it has been done by some one authorised and registered to do the work, I can go to a government web site and check my MOT is valid. OK the energy rating is not perfect, there is one on line for my old house, and I never commissioned one to be done, so clearly an error, wrong house number or something.

    But there is nothing one can do to validate an EICR, there is no national register and there was no provision on the blank forms I have to enter insurance details or C&G 2391 details it seems it is being left to the owner to verify the guy inspecting has the qualifications required by the new law. As to ID, well my son is also and electrician and was named after me, I actually paid for his exam we did it at the same time, he is clearly younger than me, however doing a document check likely random as if you find my details or his.

    I think it is time people started to write to their MP's to complain about what is going on, I live in Wales, and in Wales only multi occupancy premises need testing, the Welsh government said they were worried including all would reduce the number of rental properties available and increase the homeless, clearly in England they don't have any homeless.

    Or maybe if has been made with idea of creating a loop hole where landlords can withdraw there properties off the market? If classed uninhabitable then the notices required before eviction become void.
     
  14. Hfs

    Hfs Screwfix Select

    Look for a NICEIC approved contractor rather than the likes of NAPIT.
     
  15. unphased

    unphased Screwfix Select

    I don't know what the answer is to all this. I recognise that the intelligence levels of sparks in the trade varies enormously, as does the skill of many. It could be that too many organisations now have a vested interest in getting members. Its very clear that many electricians should not be allowed anywhere near an EICR. They just don't know how to do them.
     
  16. Ardent

    Ardent Member

    @Deleted member 11267
    So do you think he didn't carry-out any test at all on this, or might have cut corners?
    My relationship with our agents is very important, so if he's skipping stuff, that's really unacceptable.

    @Bazza This is the only photo I have of the 1st CU.
    561d76bb-89bb-4ac0-991d-8a8671b44168.jpg

    Here's one of the second CU:
    WhatsApp Image 2020-08-30 at 15.33.55.jpeg

    @Hfs This guy is NICEIC approved. We're actually looking to expand into electrical works ourselves. I appreciate NICEIC is more recognised, but is there really a big difference interns of the quality of the awarding bodies/the electricians they accredit? We were actually looking to go down the Napit rout.
     
  17. unphased

    unphased Screwfix Select

    NICEIC is more well known. It doesn't guarantee the quality of the electricians who are members. There are just as many clueless in their ranks as any other trade body. It is very very difficult to get a company to change an EICR result because they will defend their employees and just stand their ground. If you are planning on doing your own inspections raise your game! There are plenty of average electricians doing these EICRs and plenty of clueless too. Be the best is my advice and interview sparks and give then a hard time to see if they really know what they are doing. How they handle this may determine your views of NICEIC.
     
  18. Bob Rathbone

    Bob Rathbone Screwfix Select

    Surey, you are not suggesting that some trade bodies enroll electricians just for the money? :)
     
  19. unphased

    unphased Screwfix Select

    Perish the thought, Bob.
     
  20. Sparkielev

    Sparkielev Screwfix Select

    I have come across dozens of NIC sparks that are either clueless or work is shocking, their are bad sparks in all of them the only thing is NIC think they rule the industry
     

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